# Watchmen **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 24, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948 "2008-02-24T14:22:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/101 "2008-03-21T03:23:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Piece of tripe is what I say. > > No, seriously, I think Watchmen is ridiculously oversold. Yes, sequential art can do this kind of thing. Thank you, johnny-come-latelies to reading the form, for finally getting the memo. Yes, Moore & Gibbons know how to tell a story visually. Moore actually understands both writing in English & writing in pictures, & that’s not true of everyone in “comics.” > > But good grief, it’s a burlesque of super-heroes! Why anyone would try to sell a new reader of long-form cartooning on something that’s mainly trying to send up & rethink over twenty previous works, without any familiarity with the source material? > > Fans of Watchmen occasionally are like people who think Star Wars was original. > > edited to add: Oh, oh, & then there are the nuts who think that somehow, by populating his work with a cast the majority of which are unlikeable in some way, Moore “proved” that costumed adventurers are necessarily vile. Which is a curious opinion, considering the vanishingly small sample of real-world costumed adventurers. Perhaps it’s gained currency due to people tiring of the surfeit of “super-hero” comics. Mostly I think most people can’t do logic. There’s some truth to what you say. But I will point out that it was still a fairly original work back in 1986. It’s the twenty years of other writers following Watchmen’s lead that have made it look cliched. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/102 "2008-03-24T22:25:23Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Can you give an example of what you consider to be an original story? Because I can’t really think of anything, in any medium, that doesn’t borrow from it’s predecessors to a degree that would preclude calling it “original,” at least under the standard you’ve established here for that term. [/QUOTE] In film? Nothing comes to mind - but I wasn’t the one berating moviemakers for not making “original” fantastic stories. I now understand this means “not an existing title in some other media”. Well, some of my favourite genre movies (_LOTR_, _Princess Bride_, _X-Men_ & _Spider-Man_ franchises) are exactly that, so I hold out some hope for more. The other way gets you _Beastmaster_ and _Krull_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/103 "2008-03-25T00:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] In film? [/QUOTE] In any medium. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/104 "2008-03-25T07:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] In any medium. [/QUOTE] Then there are lots of original stories. _War of The Worlds_ jumps to the front of my head (for no good reason I can tell). ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/105 "2008-03-25T11:38:01Z")
What? **War of the Worlds** is just \*\*The Battle of Dorking \*\* with the Germans in Martian suits. Nothing original there… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/106 "2008-03-25T11:53:20Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] To give an example that’s already been mentioned there’s _Tales of the Black Freighter_, the comic book within the comic book. Moore used it to highlight the similarities and differences between the comic book in the characters’ world and the comic book the was the characters’ world. And there’s its context; in our world, genres like pirate comics were driven out of the market by the popularity of superhero comic books. In Moore’s world where real superheroes exist, nobody reads about them in comic books - making the points that comic books are an escapist artform and that reality can ruin the illusion that’s needed for popular fiction. Moore also had Carmine Infantino draw the pirates comic book as opposed to Dave Gibbons who drew the main portion of the series. Readers familiar with the genre would recognize Infantino as an artist from the Silver Age of comics and realize that Moore was seeking to invoke nostalgia for an earlier style of comic books. This isn’t just me deconstructing Moore’s book. I’ve read his script for the book, along with his notes to the artists and editors. He really was consciously putting a multitude of subtle things like this into the series. [/QUOTE] This is wonderfully articulated - thank you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/107 "2008-03-25T17:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=DrFidelius] What? **War of the Worlds** is just \*\*The Battle of Dorking \*\* with the Germans in Martian suits. Nothing original there… [/QUOTE] Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/108 "2008-03-25T17:19:20Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Then there are lots of original stories. _War of The Worlds_ jumps to the front of my head (for no good reason I can tell). [/QUOTE] I would disagree with this - what’s the old saying? “There are only X stories in the world.” My favorite version of this boils it down pretty simply: “There’s only 2 stories in the world: Our Hero Goes on a Journey, or A Stranger Comes to Town.” The real questions are: - Does the work feel like a fresh interpretation of a classic story (e.g., Star Wars retelling of the classic mythological Hero’s Journey) - Does the innovative, fresh interpretation endure over time? To me, that is a statement of the quality of the craft of the work - if the work is fresh at the time, it can shake things loose but appear dated quickly; if the work is fresh and well-crafted, it can endure beyond its initial splash. In the short timeframe of a few decades, I would argue that songs by the Ramones and the Sex Pistols felt shockingly new at the time, but have endured because they are well-crafted, catchy songs that stand up over time. With \*\*Watchmen \*\*- it was undeniably hailed as fresh and innovative at the time. There are countless cites for this, but as one of the Big 3 (along with Dark Knight and Maus), it is generally considered one of the key works that announced that comics had reached a new level of achievement in our culture. Does it endure? Well, by most measures - not the least of which is that we are discussing the movie interpretation in this thread - yes, it has endured for at least a couple of decades… ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/109 "2008-03-25T18:39:11Z")
I appreciate the “comic about comics” argument as my buddy Lou lays out (Alan Moore has made the same argument against a film version in numerous interviews). It is certainly true. But my thought is this: why does the film have to accomplish the same goal as did the comic? Two semi-connected thoughts. First, the inability for the film version to be as immersive as the comic only reinforces Moore’s point/goal. Even a good movie will leave out thousands of morsels that we readers of the comic have been digesting for decades. As Lou says, the book is still on the shelf. Even a successful film will not diminish that. A stinker certainly cannot. Second, simply focusing on the format and the complexity that the comic medium allows, ignores the fact that there is a very interesting story, set in a very interesting world, featuring very interesting characters. Even without the depth and vision made possible in the comic form, Moore still weaves a good yarn. Isn’t a good story a good basis for a film? What’s wrong with telling that compelling story in a different medium? Isn’t one of the things that Watchmen taught the entertainment industry that you should not shoehorn mediums? Sure, Moore approached this conclusion defensively (as comic geeks often do) by showing things comics \*could \* do that other mediums _could not_. But, I think one conclusion that comes from the triumph of Watchmen is that medium should not prevent you from trying to tell a good story. I want to see a movie version of Watchmen, and I am mildly excited to see Snyder’s. I’m sure it will fail to live up to my standards, but I will be there on day one to see. I think Synder could totally ignore the complexity, just shoot the above the radar story, and make a good film. One that if we would have loved had we never read Watchmen. The problem, of course, is that we have read Watcmen. So Snyder better bring his A-game. I’m just hoping for the jail break scene with the midget. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/110 "2008-03-29T21:43:24Z")
When this thread started, I got as far as the discussion of the “Pirate” subplot and decided to re-read “Watchmen” before reading the thread. I have now read “Watchmen”, for the first time in probably 10 years, and I am ready to respond. I agree that the “Pirates” subplot echoes and amplifies the themes of the work as a whole. To an extent it is redundant with the rest of the story, and could be eliminated without harming the story–the themes are obvious enough without it. Also, it is even more grotesque than the main plot; I had a hard time reading it and in fact skimmed most of it. I would not be a fan of comic books in the “Watchmen” world. I believe the main theme is most people who set out to fight evil \*become \* evil. Rorshach, The Comedian, and (of course) Ozymandius are all examples, as is the protagonist in the Pirates story. The closing quote in Chapter VI, which is Rorshach’s story, is “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” I take that as a statement of the main theme. It is a great work, but it is very much a work of its time–not only the Silver Age of comic books, but the Cold War. Will the feeling of looming thermonuclear war, expected to destroy all life on Earth, really resonate with people born in 1989? How about 2014, or 2039? Will all the hints about Nixon and Reagan really make much sense out of that time? Maybe they argued about the same things after watching “Henry V” at the Globe, of course. I find it ironic that the thing that the characters see as the likely trigger of war, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, actually contributed very heavily to the fall of the Soviet Union itself. Finally, if you enjoy “Watchmen” as a meditation on Silver Age superheros, you really should seek out the first Astro City collection, by Kurt Busiek. I think it is called “Life in the Big City.” It is, in part, a reaction to “Watchmen,” which Busiek saw as a deconstruction of the superhero mythos. It is also a lot more fun to read than “Watchmen,” though it has less of a chance of making it into the Canon of Great Literature. ---
**Author:** ![Hometownboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5e9695/32.png) [@Hometownboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hometownboy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/111 "2008-03-30T05:58:06Z")
I’ll add another puzzled reaction to The Watchman. As far as background, I’m a Boomer and a serious comics fan/collector of the 1960s (for many years I kept a copy of the second Overstreet guide, which I bought new). I shudder to think how much in early Silver Age Marvels, DCs and Carl Barks Donald Duck and Uncle Scrooge issues would fetch today. I sold all of them, more than 1,000 issues, to my cousin who owned a comic book shop in the mid-1980s. Stopped buying comics. Did keep all of my “underground” R Crumb’s, Wonder Warthogs, Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers Air Pirate Funnies, etc., which I wrongly guessed would ramp up heavily in value. Didn’t come to the graphic novel until my daughter introduced me to Sandman, late enough that they were collected into the trade paperbacks. Totally love them, and went looking for other high-rated titles. Enjoyed Dark Knight Returns, yes, then I got to Watchman, and was seriously disappointed. That’s not to say I don’t appreciate superheroes-in-the-real-world genre. I made it through half-a-dozen volumes in the wildly uneven Wild Cards shared universe. And I salute the complexity of Moore’s work, but perhaps it was the nearly unrelieved downer nature of the work that threw me. (Though that didn’t bother me nearly as much in Sin City, for some reason). The fact that I haven’t sold or given Watchman away, and that I’ve reread it a couple of times is a testament to the dense complexity of Moore’s work. Guess i’d rate it important, but not likable. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/112 "2008-03-31T13:33:14Z")
[QUOTE=Reno Nevada] It is a great work, but it is very much a work of its time–not only the Silver Age of comic books, but the Cold War. Will the feeling of looming thermonuclear war, expected to destroy all life on Earth, really resonate with people born in 1989? How about 2014, or 2039? Will all the hints about Nixon and Reagan really make much sense out of that time? Maybe they argued about the same things after watching “Henry V” at the Globe, of course. [/QUOTE] Didn’t the series come out quite a bit after the cold war? It was already a historical piece when it was written if I remember correctly. Of course if you didn’t live through the events at least, I guess it might not have as much impact. I remember in junior high school still having nuclear attack drills and worrying about such things and then in high school it was like it had never happened. My latest worry is that the studio will put pressure on the film to 1) be action-superheroey like a Fantastic Four movie or even if it turns out proper that they will try to _market_ it like a FF movie (see Bridge to Terebithia) and 2) that they will chop the original film into a tragic mess trying to make what was clearly an R rated graphic novel into a PG-13 rated movie. On an unrelated note I just noticed that instant email alerts from the SDMB don’t hide spoilers, hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/113 "2008-03-31T13:42:56Z")
Oh my. At the time \*\*Watchmen \*\* came out, we were all expecting Reagan to start a nuclear war with those poor peace-loving Russians, just because he was a warmongering cowboy. If we disarmed ourselves voluntarily then those lovable Soviets would no longer feel threatened and they would dismantle their bombs and missles. At least that is what I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/114 "2008-03-31T15:50:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Didn’t the series come out quite a bit after the cold war? It was already a historical piece when it was written if I remember correctly. Of course if you didn’t live through the events at least, I guess it might not have as much impact. I remember in junior high school still having nuclear attack drills and worrying about such things and then in high school it was like it had never happened. The series was published in 1986, the middle of Reagan’s second term. Definitely still the cold war era - it was us vs the Evil Empire. > [@](#): > > At the time Watchmen came out, we were all expecting Reagan to start a nuclear war with those poor peace-loving Russians, just because he was a warmongering cowboy. If we disarmed ourselves voluntarily then those lovable Soviets would no longer feel threatened and they would dismantle their bombs and missles. As I recall, most of us thought there was a sane middle ground somewhere between the options of launching a pre-emptive nuclear war and total disarmament. We didn’t love or trust the Soviets but we didn’t see any need to kill them all either. Especially when they could kill us all back. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/115 "2008-03-31T15:56:21Z")
I’m remembering what The Hollywood Liberal Media was telling me at the time, and not necessarily my personal feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/116 "2008-03-31T16:30:19Z")
[QUOTE=DrFidelius] I’m remembering what The Hollywood Liberal Media was telling me at the time, and not necessarily my personal feelings. [/QUOTE] Great – you found the Hollywood Liberal Media! I’ve been looking for that thing for _decades_! What’s it like? I think _Watchmen_ holds up as a milestone. It’s just that milestones are inevitably left behind back up the road. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/117 "2008-03-31T17:30:07Z")
[QUOTE=DrFidelius] I’m remembering what The Hollywood Liberal Media was telling me at the time, and not necessarily my personal feelings. [/QUOTE] The same Hollywood Liberal Media that brought us such Soviet-luvin’ fare as _Red Dawn_ and _The Day After_, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/118 "2008-03-31T17:38:04Z")
Can anybody name _even one_ pro-Soviet movie produced by a main line Hollywood studio? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/119 "2008-03-31T19:49:06Z")
I understand _The Empire Strikes Back On Behalf Of The Proletariat And Then Dissolves Itself_ underwent a shortening of its title. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/120 "2008-04-01T11:40:37Z")
Who’s talking about the movies they made (to bring in money)? Don’t any of you remember the stars and hacks of that time pontificating at “No Nukes” ralleys and talk-shows? The Media are more than their commercial product. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948.md?page=5)