# Water and Lightning Strikes
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [September 7, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356 "2007-09-07T14:38:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Lily2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lily2)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/1 "2007-09-07T14:38:12Z")
Uh, Tampa is not on the ocean. That person was either swimming in Tampa Bay or the Gulf of Mexico…
Thanks!
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/2 "2007-09-07T14:56:58Z")
Welcome to the Straight Dope, \*\*Lily2 \*\*. It’s customary to include a link to the staff report when you start a thread about one. Like this:
Link to the staff report: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlightning.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlightning.html)
---
### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/3 "2007-09-07T15:16:15Z")
It happened near Clearwater Beach, on the Gulf, according to Adam Emerson,
“Swimmers Hit By Lightning On The Mend,” _Tampa Tribune_, July 26, 2005
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/4 "2007-09-07T16:09:23Z")
Does anybody really think that the Gulf of Mexico isn’t part of the Atlantic Ocean? Is there a magical barrier somewhere that no one’s told me about?
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### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/5 "2007-09-07T16:42:45Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
Does anybody really think that the Gulf of Mexico isn’t part of the Atlantic Ocean?
[/QUOTE]
Or Tampa Bay, for that matter.
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### Author:  [@Joedelta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joedelta)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/6 "2007-09-07T20:41:50Z")
I am skeptical that swimming during a lightning storm is “relatively dangerous.” Jack Williams (the USA Today weather editor you quote) cites no sources, and you could only come up with two anecdotal cases – worldwide – over several years as examples. And neither example had fatalities. Dangerous? Swimming during a storm is probably less dangerous than riding a motorcycle for the same length of time. Statistically, danger from lightning at the beach pales in comparison to danger from tsunami. (Averaging over 10,000 fatalities per year worldwide.)
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/7 "2007-09-07T20:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=Joedelta]
and you could only come up with two anecdotal cases – worldwide
[/QUOTE]
There were plenty more.
The earliest one I happened to find was reported at “Father and Son Killed: Struck by Lightning While Swimming From a Capsized Boat at Stamford,” _New York Times_, September 2, 1895
All of the cases I mentioned were described in newspaper articles. Are you suggesting these people really weren’t struck by lightning? Or that they weren’t swimming at the time?
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/8 "2007-09-08T00:14:18Z")
Great report, **GFactor** - just the right mix of informative facts and insouciant commentary!
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/9 "2007-09-08T00:39:44Z")
Thanks.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/10 "2007-09-08T01:30:34Z")
[QUOTE=Joedelta]
I am skeptical that swimming during a lightning storm is “relatively dangerous.” Jack Williams (the USA Today weather editor you quote) cites no sources, and you could only come up with two anecdotal cases – worldwide – over several years as examples. And neither example had fatalities. Dangerous? Swimming during a storm is probably less dangerous than riding a motorcycle for the same length of time. Statistically, danger from lightning at the beach pales in comparison to danger from tsunami. (Averaging over 10,000 fatalities per year worldwide.)
[/QUOTE]
I guess it depends on what is meant by “relatively dangerous.” According to the government .pdf **Gfactor** linked to, there were only 38 lightning fatalities in 2005 (unless I’ve misread said .pdf.)
In all of 2005 not a single person died from a lightning strike while in the water, and only three died while in boats (out of the total of 38 lightning fatalities that year.)
I’d argue that the more normal hazards of swimming (like drowning) are way more dangerous than the risk of getting killed by lightning while swimming.
So sure, it might be “relatively dangerous” but only if we’re comparing swimming in a thunderstorm to something that is in and of itself extremely safe.
I do agree with the general idea that swimming during a t-storm isn’t really all that dangerous at all–at least not because of the lightning. I would imagine your risk of drowning goes up a good bit when swimming in such weather.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/11 "2007-09-08T02:03:01Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I’d argue that the more normal hazards of swimming (like drowning) are way more dangerous than the risk of getting killed by lightning while swimming.
[/quote]
On what would you base your opinion? If a million people are swimming at a given moment on a clear day, how many drown? Not many, I’d suppose, not as a percentage of the total population engaging in the activity. Now, how large a population would you have of people swimming in a thunderstorm? Not very big, I’ll wager. Mainly because common sense would tell the vast majority of people to get out of the water.
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> So sure, it might be “relatively dangerous” but only if we’re comparing swimming in a thunderstorm to something that is in and of itself extremely safe.
That’s what we’re comparing.
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/12 "2007-09-08T02:03:57Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#):
>
> Does anybody really think that the Gulf of Mexico isn’t part of the Atlantic Ocean?
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
Or Tampa Bay, for that matter.
[/QUOTE]
Eh? The Gulf of Mexico is part of Tampa Bay? [/Gracie Allen]
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/13 "2007-09-08T03:26:16Z")
[QUOTE=samclem]
On what would you base your opinion? If a million people are swimming at a given moment on a clear day, how many drown? Not many, I’d suppose, not as a percentage of the total population engaging in the activity. Now, how large a population would you have of people swimming in a thunderstorm? Not very big, I’ll wager. Mainly because common sense would tell the vast majority of people to get out of the water.
[/quote]
I’d be surprised if we had any accurate totals for “number of people swimming” in any given day. That’s something that would be very hard to quantify, I would think.
> [@](#):
>
> That’s what we’re comparing.
And I never said “we” weren’t, as I said, relatively dangerous is correct if you’re comparing it to something people consider extremely safe.
In the case of swimming in a thunderstorm, it is (based on the evidence) relatively safe compared to tons of stuff people do every single day so I’m not really sure people should concern themselves about it–even if it is “relatively dangerous” when compared to stuff that is extremely safe.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/14 "2007-09-08T03:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I guess it depends on what is meant by “relatively dangerous.” According to the government .pdf **Gfactor** linked to, there were only 38 lightning fatalities in 2005 (unless I’ve misread said .pdf.)
[/QUOTE]
And 308 injuries. Still not a huge number, I agree. Of course, we need to take into account:
1. Those are U.S. Figures only.
2. Some experts claim they are underreported
3. 40% of the strikes are lumped into the “Various Other and Unknown” category.
4. It probably makes more sense to look at the numbers over a period of years than the last one that happens to be available.
Nevertheless, even if we accept the numbers suggested by Rakove & Unman in _Lightning: Physics and Effects_ (2003): 100 deaths/1000 injuries annually in the U.S., that’s still way less than the number of drownings. [http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm](http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm) (3,306 in 2003, just for accidental non-boat-related). Your annual odds of accidental drowning in 2003 were 1/87,976 and your lifetime odds were 1/1,134.
Odds of death by lightning in the same year were 1/6,188,298 and the lifetime odds were 1/79,746.
But the questioner assumes lightning is striking nearby, which increases the odds substantially.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/15 "2007-09-08T03:38:40Z")
Here are my references, by the way:
“4 Swimmers Struck by Lightning in Chiba Prefecture,” Kyodo World News Service, July 31, 2005
“2005 Annual Summaries: Flood/Flash Flood, Lightning, Tornado, Hurricane,” National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration: [http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/sd/annsum2005.pdf](http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/sd/annsum2005.pdf)
Bragaw, Matthew, Lightning Safety, Jetstream: An Online School for Weather, National Weather Service, September 17, 2004: [http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/lightning/lightning\_safety.htm](http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/lightning/lightning_safety.htm)
Cooper, Mary Ann, Lightning Injury Research Program: [http://www.uic.edu/labs/lightninginjury/index.htm](http://www.uic.edu/labs/lightninginjury/index.htm)
Curran, Brian, _et al._, “Lightning Casualties and Damages in the United States from 1959 to 1994,” _Journal of Climate_, Volume 13, Issue 19 (October 2000): [http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0442(2000)013\<3448%3ALCADIT\>2.0.CO%3B2](http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0442%282000%29013%3C3448%3ALCADIT%3E2.0.CO%3B2)
Curran, Brian & Holle, Ronald, "
Lightning Fatalities, Injuries, and Damage Reports From 1959-1994: [http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/papers/techmemos/NWS-SR-193/techmemo-sr193.html](http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/papers/techmemos/NWS-SR-193/techmemo-sr193.html)
“Doctor Warns Against Using iPods in a Lightning Storm,” _The Boston Globe_, July 12, 2007: [http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/07/12/doctor\_warns\_against\_using\_ipods\_in\_a\_lightning\_storm/](http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/07/12/doctor_warns_against_using_ipods_in_a_lightning_storm/)
Emerson, Adam, “Swimmers Hit By Lightning On The Mend,” _Tampa Tribune_, Jul 26, 2005. pg. 1
“Father and Son Killed: Struck by Lightning While Swimming From a Capsized Boat at Stamford,” _New York Times_, September 2, 1895, pg. 1
Gurevich, Alexander & Zybin, Kirill, “Runaway Breakdown and the Mysteries of Lightning,” Physics Today, May 2005, p. 37: [http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~jgladden/phys510/spring06/Gurevich.pdf](http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~jgladden/phys510/spring06/Gurevich.pdf)
Holle, Ronald, _et al._, “U.S. Lightning Deaths, Injuries, and Damages in the 1890s Compared to 1990s,” NOAA Technical Memorandum OAR NSSL-106 (2001): [http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/papers/techmemos/NSSL-106/](http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/papers/techmemos/NSSL-106/)
Miller, Craig, “Maps” Help Reveal How Lightning Strikes, [NationalGeographic.com](http://NationalGeographic.com), September 25, 2002: [National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030522_lightning.html)
National Lightning Safety Institute, 35 Years of Lightning Deaths and Injuries: [http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi\_lls/35\_years\_injuries.html](http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/35_years_injuries.html)
National Weather Service, Lightning Safety Program: [http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/index.htm](http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/index.htm)
Nave, Carl, Hyperphysics: Lightning: [Lightning](http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/lightning2.html)
Nova scienceNOW: Lightning, October 18, 2005: [Lightning | NOVA | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3214/02.html)
Stanford Linear Accelerator Virtual Vistor Center: High Energy Cosmic Rays and the Atmosphere: [http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/cosmicrays/cratmos.html](http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/cosmicrays/cratmos.html)
Walsh, Katie, _et al_., “National Athletic Trainers’ Association Position Statement: Lightning Safety for Athletics and Recreation,” _Journal of Athletic Training_ 35(4) 471 (2000): [http://www.nata.org/jat/readers/archives/jt0400/jt040000471p.pdf](http://www.nata.org/jat/readers/archives/jt0400/jt040000471p.pdf)
Weiner, Nancy,
Experts Divided on What Attracts Lightning Some Say Electronic Devices Are Dangerous, Others Disagree, [ABC.com](http://ABC.com), July 12, 2006: [Experts Divided on What Attracts Lightning - ABC News](http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weather/story?id=2181843)
Woods, Judith, “Thunder and Lightning are Very Frightening,” [Telegraph.co.uk](http://Telegraph.co.uk), 26/07/2006: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2006/07/26/hlightning26.xml](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2006/07/26/hlightning26.xml)
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### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/16 "2007-09-08T03:50:35Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor]
Weiner, Nancy,
Experts Divided on What Attracts Lightning Some Say Electronic Devices Are Dangerous, Others Disagree, [ABC.com](http://ABC.com), July 12, 2006: [Experts Divided on What Attracts Lightning - ABC News](http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weather/story?id=2181843)
[/QUOTE]
> [@The link](#):
>
> In a recent issue of the British Medical Journal, three London doctors warned “mobile phones outdoors during stormy weather. … Are a public health issue” because of their conductive properties.
Those doctors are morons.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/17 "2007-09-08T03:54:57Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
Those doctors are morons.
[/QUOTE]
No question.
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### Author:  [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)
#### Post date: [September 10, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/18 "2007-09-10T20:38:35Z")
From the [National Weather Service Site](http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/wcm/LSAW-03FullArticle.htm) linked in **GFactor** ’s excellent report.
> [@](#):
>
> You’re having a picnic one fine Saturday summer afternoon. The weather is wonderfully warm and sunny. Off in the distance you hear a rumble of thunder. You’re having fantastic fun when suddenly – a blinding flash of light – and your life is ruined as family and friends are killed and crippled. Lightning has struck!
I agree that lightning is dangerous, but aren’t the histrionics a little over-the-top?
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [September 10, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/19 "2007-09-10T20:57:23Z")
Yes. It’s a bit heavy-handed.
And I’m saddened that nobody has pointed out this band name of an article:
Gurevich, Alexander & Zybin, Kirill, “Runaway Breakdown and the Mysteries of Lightning,” Physics Today, May 2005, p. 37: [http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~jgladden/phys510/spring06/Gurevich.pdf](http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~jgladden/phys510/spring06/Gurevich.pdf)
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### Author:  [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)
#### Post date: [September 10, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-and-lightning-strikes/418356/20 "2007-09-10T21:27:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Swimmers Hit By Lightning On The Mend
And I have to wonder what had happened to the poor lighting that it was convalescing. Didn’t those swimmers know that an injured lightning bolt is extremely dangerous and may strike without warning?
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