# Water crisis out west. AZ,CO,CA and NV **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 17, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569 "2022-05-17T19:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/21 "2022-05-18T01:43:16Z")
I’m a lifelong Midwesterner, and I never heard of these until I saw this program. I just thought they were natural ponds. > **[Basin PBS | Playas: The Land of Little Lakes | Episode 2 | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/video/playas-the-land-of-little-lakes-aqmtwz/)** > > Doc about playa lakes and their vital role as a recharge feature of the Ogallala aquifer. Or TL : DW > **[Playa Lakes | US EPA](https://www.epa.gov/wetlands/playa-lakes)** > > Playa lakes are round hollows in the ground in the Southern High Plains of the United States. They are ephemeral, meaning that they are only present at certain times of the year. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/22 "2022-05-18T02:52:57Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Fully agreed here - this is the partial solution that needs more emphasis. Though I will add the caveat that though wastewater reuse is cheaper than desalination that doesn’t mean it is cheap and it does create waste brine, just less concentrated and toxic than desalination. Yeah, it is not perfect, just better. Have Ag stop wasteful water usage, and start working on water reclamation. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Channelling Bobcat Goldtwaite _“DON’T LIVE/MANUFACTURE/FARM IN A ^@%$ DESERT!”_ . Not many Californians live in the desert. SoCal is pine, oak, shrub and chaparral . > **[Biomes CA](https://livingforapes.weebly.com/biomes-ca.html)** > > What is a Biome? A biome is a large naturally occurring community of flora and fauna occupying a major habitat, e.g., forest or tundra. Biomes are defined by abiotic factors  such as  climate,... ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/23 "2022-05-18T06:15:50Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > As a lifelong Chicagoan, believe me, I appreciate the allure of living someplace warmer. Not to worry, “warmer place to live” is actually coming to you instead. It’s not so much willful blindness that is causing problems, as a cowardice in refusing to deal with the political fallout from actually doing something concrete to cut back on people’s water use - especially farmers, it seems. A good analogy might be with the current oil supply - “the world is going to bake, boil us like frogs in a warming pot, and kill billions” is not a good reason to switch to renewable energy, but “OMG, gas is close to $5 a gallon” is now suddenly a really good reason to explore alternative energy options. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/24 "2022-05-18T11:28:59Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > [https://www.kcet.org/news-community/as-lithium-drilling-advances-at-the-salton-sea-researchers-work-out-the-details](https://www.kcet.org/news-community/as-lithium-drilling-advances-at-the-salton-sea-researchers-work-out-the-details) > > Is that going to massively screw up _something else_ ? Of course. We’re Americans (many of us). It’s what we do. Actually, it’s one of the most environmentally friendly ways to get minerals. The water from the geothermal plants is pumped back underground. So the lithium extraction can be done between generating power and the return to ground. There are other minerals in that water that might be extractable too. The alternative\* is to dig some big open pit mines in northern Nevada/southern Oregon. The mines will requires more water than is available on the surface, so they would be extracting it from underground. The mines will mess up the environment there, especially that of the sage grouse, which breeds in the area where they want to dig. \*They’ll probably end up doing both, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/25 "2022-05-18T13:16:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not many Californians live in the desert. SoCal is pine, oak, shrub and chaparral . Well, the map in your link is of little use, as it shows LA/SD as “urban”! 😉 And I suggest that as far as water availability goes, chaparral is likely little more use than desert when it comes down to accommodating 20 million people - or growing water intensive crops such as almonds. Haven’t looked at any biome maps, but I’ve visited Phoenix and Las Vegas. Really astounds me that folk assume such hostile environments ought to be able to comfortably house millions of people. I’m an avid golfer, and I assume most golf courses rely heavily on reclaimed water, but it really jars me when I see those green jewels surrounded by desert. In politics, they often talk about “the appearance of impropriety.” Well, desert golf courses really “appear improper” to my eye. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/26 "2022-05-18T13:20:50Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > I do question whether it is possible to pump water across the Rockies in sufficient quantity to alleviate shortages. I don’t think most people appreciate the volume used. I recall pictures of the diameter of pipes under construction that would provide merely additional feed to NYC for example. That was gravity fed- how do you pump that much volume uphill, and with what energy? At that point it gets really expensive. Copying from **[my post here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-freshwater-around-on-continents/951528/17)**: > According to this, a bushel of corn requires about 3000 gallons of water, which works out to $390 worth of water if you’re pumping it through pipelines just 100 miles long. I don’t know where corn sits on the water usage scale - it sounds like almonds are at the top end - but pumping water halfway across the country would be prohibitively expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/27 "2022-05-18T13:47:42Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I don’t know where corn sits on the water usage scale - it sounds like almonds are at the top end - but pumping water halfway across the country would be prohibitively expensive. Kinda related - last month, my wife brought home some corn on the cob. It was not ridiculously expensive. I wondered what part of the southern hemisphere it came from, but when I looked at the label, it said product of US. I do not believe it specified a state. Just wondering from up her in the middle of corn country IL - where in the US and under what conditions is corn able to be grown to be harvested in early spring? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/28 "2022-05-18T14:34:37Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > The simple rule of thumb is - if things can’t go on like this - they won’t. If there’s no replacement water, then the people will have suffer toilets and showers that suck, high water bills, and eventually will have to move. I disagree with this. Agriculture uses WAY more water than urban uses. As I mentioned in the other thread, people living in cities will be more than happy to have some distant orchards removed from the water equation long before they have to start using the old “If it’s yellow, let it mellow. If it’s brown, flush it down” technique. And the value of urban real estate in CA is such that it dwarfs the value of farmland - so no one is giving up their suburban home yet if there is water to be found elsewhere. Industrial, residential, and recreational (golf courses) are not really the problem with water out west - a modest reduction in acreage of irrigated pasture, alfalfa, and tree nuts is probably all that would be necessary to ensure the limited (and shrinking) supply of water is enough to meet everyone’s needs for quite a while, and keep farmers of other high-value crops destined for domestic consumption (as opposed to export) in business. Here is a good article on water usage by crop in California: [https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/specialsections/these-are-the-california-crops-that-use-the-most-water/](https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/specialsections/these-are-the-california-crops-that-use-the-most-water/) Here is another useful article with more data and graphs: > **[Water Use in California](https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/)** > > To understand California’s water, start here. Water use in California varies dramatically between wet and dry years: learn who’s using California’s water, where, and how much. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/29 "2022-05-18T15:24:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not many Californians live in the desert. Average annual rainfall in Los Angeles - [16 inches](https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/california/los_angeles#:~:text=Los%20Angeles%2C%20California%20gets%2016,inches%20of%20snow%20per%20year.). Average annual rainfall in San Diego - [12 inches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_San_Diego#Precipitation). Average annual rainfall in Riverside - [11 inches.](https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/california/riverside#:~:text=Riverside%2C%20California%20gets%2011%20inches,inches%20of%20snow%20per%20year.) Compare that to Dallas [(36 inches)](https://www.iweathernet.com/dfw-weather-records/precip-past-12-months-dfw#:~:text=Average%20(%E2%80%9CNormal%E2%80%9D)%20Annual,from%20freezing%20and%20frozen%20precipitation); Atlanta [(47 inches)](https://www.tripsavvy.com/moving-to-atlanta-weather-statistics-253622#:~:text=Atlanta%20averages%20of%2048%20days,according%20to%20U.S.%20climate%20data.), and even Kansas City [(42 inches)](https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/missouri/kansas_city#:~:text=Kansas%20City%2C%20Missouri%20gets%2042,inches%20of%20snow%20per%20year.). Just because the shoulders of I-5 aren’t littered with cattle skulls doesn’t mean there’s enough water for 20 million people. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/30 "2022-05-18T15:41:26Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Kinda related - last month, my wife brought home some corn on the cob. It was not ridiculously expensive. I wondered what part of the southern hemisphere it came from, but when I looked at the label, it said product of US. I do not believe it specified a state. > > Just wondering from up her in the middle of corn country IL - where in the US and under what conditions is corn able to be grown to be harvested in early spring? I’m not a farmer but I do live in South Texas in an area with lots of farms. The typical crops I see are corn / wheat / sorghum in the first half of the planting season, and cotton in the second half. The first half harvest is usually in June and the second half harvest is usually in September / October. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/31 "2022-05-18T16:13:48Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Just wondering from up her in the middle of corn country IL - where in the US and under what conditions is corn able to be grown to be harvested in early spring? Around here it comes from [Florida](https://erec.ifas.ufl.edu/fciig/sfcp.htm). Georgia also grows sweet corn. > In south Florida, sweet corn is grown September through May, often with the Everglades area out of production during part of December and January. Production proceeds into central and northern areas with the increased temperatures of spring and summer. Sweet corn grown in the state matures in roughly 75 to 90 d. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/32 "2022-05-18T16:33:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not many Californians live in the desert. > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Average annual rainfall in Los Angeles - [16 inches](https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/california/los_angeles#:~:text=Los%20Angeles%2C%20California%20gets%2016,inches%20of%20snow%20per%20year.). Average annual rainfall in San Diego - [12 inches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_San_Diego#Precipitation). Average annual rainfall in Riverside - [11 inches.](https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/california/riverside#:~:text=Riverside%2C%20California%20gets%2011%20inches,inches%20of%20snow%20per%20year.) Technically these are semi-arid areas (10"\< for a true desert vs 10-20" for semi-arid), as opposed to the Mojave desert inland from them which gets 3.5" to 10" in a few spots depending on elevation. This is pretty comparable to some parts of [Southern Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Italy#Climates_found_in_Italy) and [Southern Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Spain#Hot_and_Cold_Semiarid_climates), which have similar Mediterranean climates. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/33 "2022-05-18T16:50:51Z")
Not sure where you get 12" for San Diego—it’s closer to 10" ([https://www.sdcwa.org/your-water/reservoirs-rainfall/rainfall/](https://www.sdcwa.org/your-water/reservoirs-rainfall/rainfall/), click on 55-year data table) and even that is measured at the airport, down by the water—inland parts of the city are drier, and do average (just) under 10". ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/34 "2022-05-18T17:03:48Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Not sure where you get 12" for San Diego From that link Kent\_Clark posted from wikipedia and I copied 🙂. I have started underlining those sometimes these days as folks with mobiles seem to have a harder time picking out short blue text links in a paragraph, but since I just copied it I left the formatting the same. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/35 "2022-05-18T17:05:00Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Around here it comes from [Florida](https://erec.ifas.ufl.edu/fciig/sfcp.htm). Georgia also grows sweet corn. Great - thanks. I guess I didn’t think of the SE as a corn producer, and was trying to compare “winters” to the midwest growing season. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/36 "2022-05-18T17:24:07Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > From that link Kent\_Clark posted from wikipedia and I copied 🙂. I have started underlining those sometimes these days as folks with mobiles seem to have a harder time picking out short blue text links in a paragraph, but since I just copied it I left the formatting the same. I’ve taken to rendering links in boldface type to make them more conspicuous. So instead of [12 inches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_San_Diego#Precipitation), you see **[12 inches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_San_Diego#Precipitation)**. Quick work on a full keyboard: copy your link from wherever, highlight the reader-friendly text in your post, then CTRL+B, CTRL+K, CTRL+V, ``. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/37 "2022-05-18T17:36:06Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I disagree with this. Agriculture uses WAY more water than urban uses. As I mentioned in the other thread, people living in cities will be more than happy to have some distant orchards removed from the water equation long before they have to start using the old “If it’s yellow, let it mellow. If it’s brown, flush it down” technique. And the value of urban real estate in CA is such that it dwarfs the value of farmland - so no one is giving up their suburban home yet if there is water to be found elsewhere. The problem is that legislative representatives are geographically allocated, and the ones for less urban areas are quite vocal about protecting farms. Perhaps as the population shift increases those representatives will be drowned out. Plus many politicians have nostalgic hard-ons for the “family farm” of old tradition. After all, even the feds pump billions into supporting the farming business, especially the party that touts “free market” as the end all and be all of economic dogma. (Here in Canada we do the same, and are subject to regular American attacks over our protectionist measures because we try to exclude milk and other products heavily subsidized by the US government.) As I posted earlier, a problem I read about California farmers is that some are heavily incentivized to _not_ be more water efficient because if they did manage to cut back, they lose that part of their quota for all time. Plus, during a drought an excess supply quota might get reduced to a manageable supply but an adequate supply would get reduced to an inadequate supply. Add to that over the last decade there were regular scares about vegetables contaminated with e coli because many market garden farms were next door to cattle farms and shared the same irrigation canals. But yes, the problem is that if the agriculture is not sustainable in that climate then… it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/38 "2022-05-18T18:17:29Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Not sure where you get 12" for San Diego—it’s closer to 10" Add to this that rainfall in Southern California is only in winter. Usually, from April through October it is dry as a bone. Same for the Sacramento Valley, where we grow rice. California is the nations 2nd largest producer of rice, most from the Sacramento area ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/39 "2022-05-18T18:51:50Z")
I thank EDOK9Trainer for the link. It was very, very informative. I post the following excerpt because it breaks my heart to see that, yet again, the true native Americans are being absolutely trashed in all of this. > The Colorado River, source of water for 40 million people in the Southwest, flows through the Arizona desert just a few miles from Lena Haskey’s house. Haskey, a member of the Navajo Nation, gets none of it. > > Haskey’s home, a one-room octagon at the base of a striated rocky rise, has no running water at all. The five-gallon camp shower she and two grandnieces use to bathe — a plastic bag hanging from the ceiling just inside her entryway — is filled with groundwater. That water comes from a communal well 10 miles away, where Haskey, 66, pumps it into barrels that she ferries home in her Dodge minivan. > > “We are living without water for a long time,” Haskey, who built the house in Bitter Springs with her father in 1974, said matter-of-factly. > > As [much as 40 percent of Navajo Nation residents](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/washington-post-live/wplive/30-to-40-percent-of-navajo-people-dont-have-running-water-says-navajo-nation-president/2021/06/23/64cabbff-2425-481a-9d6e-1420f88bd0e9_video.html?itid=lk_inline_enhanced-template) have no indoor plumbing, the result of decades of marginalization by states and the federal government, as well as a lack of water delivery infrastructure and money to build it. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569/40 "2022-05-18T19:04:03Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I didn’t think of the SE as a corn producer I haven’t checked but I suspect corn is grown in every state of the union except maybe Alaska just not in mega-quantities like, say, Iowa. I was in southeastern Arizona for the weekend and noticed most of the alfalfa fields have been replaced by wheat, which needs a lot less water. It’s a hybrid, [Desert](https://www.uswheat.org/wheatletter/desert-durum-continues-to-deliver-consistently-excellent-quality/) [Durum](https://www.azfb.org/Article/Fun-Facts-about-Arizonas-Desert-Durum), and the majority of it is exported to Italy where they love to make pasta from it. A little is made into [whiskey](https://drizly.com/liquor/whiskey/irish-whiskey/arizona-distilling-desert-durum-wheat-whiskey/p64690). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-crisis-out-west-az-co-ca-and-nv/964569.md?page=3)