# Water from the Great Lakes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146 "2010-06-06T05:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/121 "2010-06-09T19:13:25Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Yeah, when I visited Las Vegas, I found it rather ridiculous that I saw some homes with grass lawns. It’s one of the most pointless, wasteful things I’ve ever seen. Anyone who moves to the desert should make sure they like sand and cacti first. [Nitpick mode] No one has _sand_ in their yard [End nitpick mode]. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/122 "2010-06-09T19:57:58Z")
And I thought the reason Calif was able to grow so much produce so affordably was its ready access to such a large pool of illegal alien migrant farm workers! Maybe if we were to work out a trade … 😛 I’m not sure why the focus of this discussion turned so hard towards California. I suspect that I am not alone, however, in being skeptical of yet another suggestion (however joking) to deplete yet another natural resource merely for human convenience. I know I am not the only person who feels mankind - and especially Americans, really ought to make a hard turn towards adopting more sustainable lifestyles, which are not subsidized by cheap foods, fuels, and consumer goods. If that means produce from California - or Chile - is more expensive, and available more seasonably, that would be a small sacrifice. And I would be 100% on-board with substantially reduced corn and beef production. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/123 "2010-06-09T21:27:15Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > And you say you would rather a family of 5 flush water away without a care in the world than consider selling it?) When I shower or flush or do anything with water know where it goes? Back into Lake Michigan. Pretty much all of it (after it has been cleaned of course). Nifty how that works out. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/124 "2010-06-09T23:46:35Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > It is not clear that the US as a matter of policy wants to outsource the 40% of tis fruits and veggies that grow in CA. Many simply don’t grow elsewhere in the US, and nowhere in the world do they grow as efficiently. And that policy is codified in the subsidies of the US Farm Bill, the Export Enhancement Program and the quotas and non-tarriff barriers to foodstuff imports destined for the US. The notion that California is the world’s most efficient producer (as distinct from the largest producer) is refuted by the amount of money the US taxpayer funnels to it’s corporate agricultural producers so as every US consumer can eat say freshly picked broccoli all year around. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/125 "2010-06-10T00:11:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > When I shower or flush or do anything with water know where it goes? Back into Lake Michigan. Pretty much all of it (after it has been cleaned of course). Nifty how that works out. Correct: The way are Great Lakes water rules work they would have to transport the water back into the water basin sometime that same year after use and purification. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/126 "2010-06-10T07:45:29Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure why the focus of this discussion turned so hard towards California. That seems to be mostly **not\_alice** ’s doing. > [@](#): > > I suspect that I am not alone, however, in being skeptical of yet another suggestion (however joking) to deplete yet another natural resource merely for human convenience. No, I don’t think you’re alone at all, in fact I think you have plenty of company right here in this thread. The OP seemed to be looking for an easy solution (fresh water that “just gets wasted anyway”) to a complex problem (demand for water outstripping the natural water supply). Whenever anyone justifies an action by saying that “Resource X is just sitting there!”, whether X is a bag of cookies, a box of office supplies, the pension fund or the water in the Great Lakes – proceed with caution. I’ve recently seen a claim that the precipitation that falls on my adopted country each year could provide fresh water for drinking, cooking, and washing for the whole planet. I have no idea if this is true or not, but let’s assume it is. Most of that water doesn’t get used for anything before it runs into the sea. Does Norway then have some moral obligation to catch that water and give it away or sell it? Do we “owe” Spain that water because we buy Spanish produce? Or can we simply say that’s part of the water cycle and nature has distributed this resource, as so many other resources, unevenly? ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/127 "2010-06-10T19:19:28Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > T Look at Atlanta and its water issues. What water issues? It’s my understanding that any water issues we have in GA is because we’re contractually obligated to supply Florida with water. > **[Feds OK drought deal letting Georgia keep more water - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/16/southern.drought/index.html)** > > Federal biologists said Friday they had signed off on a plan aimed at providing relief to the drought-parched Southeast, under which more water will be retained in Georgia instead of being released into Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/128 "2010-06-10T20:26:39Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > You can have our lake water when you can drain it out of our cold, damp bladders. Yeah. Piss on those Arizonans!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/129 "2010-06-10T21:20:37Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I call bullshit on the seriousness of people who rag on California, and you say it is taking it personally?.. And I call bullshit on the idea that we would all die without California. Like the other poster said: Get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/130 "2010-06-11T00:38:44Z")
Didn’t we as a nation become almost completely self-sufficient vegetable-wise with Victory Gardens during WWII? I swear I saw a History Channel factoid that said victory gardens supplied 90% of civilians’ fruits and vegetables by the end of the war. Surely a return to that would be a huge benefit to the entire country, and as an added bonus we could tell California to go pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/131 "2010-06-11T04:25:37Z")
I think so Ellis Dee, although **not\_alice** is right that a good amount of Big Agriculture’s products end up as different types of canned food. Produce from backyard gardens wouldn’t fix that but could take the place of a lot of “bought” produce. Look at [this guy](http://www.midfex.org/yale/panoram.html) who has 97 apple trees in his back yard … in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/132 "2010-06-11T04:41:06Z")
when most produce was local people did can, dry, pickle and root cellar their own production to make it through nonharvest times of the year. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/133 "2010-06-11T04:49:57Z")
And now we have freezers, which makes it even easier. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/134 "2010-06-11T04:54:15Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > And now we have freezers, which makes it even easier. Yeah growing and canning your own food is so easy, it is a wonder we have actual farms and stores selling produce or processed food at all! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/135 "2010-06-11T06:09:09Z")
Yes, actually growing my own food IS easy. I put seeds in the ground. Stuff grows. Because, you know, there’s enough rain in my part of the world that irrigation is unnecessary _even for commercial farms_, much less my backyard. As I already mentioned, I grew most of the vegetables we’ve eaten over the last year. In fact, for dinner last night I had beets-and-cabbage soup made from last summer’s garden produce. Of course, you’re free to ignore any evidence to the contrary of your position… ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/136 "2010-06-11T06:19:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, actually growing my own food IS easy. I put seeds in the ground. Stuff grows. Because, you know, there’s enough rain in my part of the world that irrigation is unnecessary _even for commercial farms_, much less my backyard. > > As I already mentioned, I grew most of the vegetables we’ve eaten over the last year. In fact, for dinner last night I had beets-and-cabbage soup made from last summer’s garden produce. > > Of course, you’re free to ignore any evidence to the contrary of your position… Actually, before I rebut you (although unless you eat _only_ food form your garden, you are still not even as sufficient as you seem to be claiming) I am waiting for you to actually make the case that: a) your efforts would scale to feed 350 million people 3x per day 365 days a year every year, and b) in so doing, it doesn’t reduce us to an agrarian economy 1830s style (which worked ok for a while when we had ~25% of the population OTOMH) Let me know what you come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/137 "2010-06-11T06:43:12Z")
Nice moving of the goalposts. You keep claiming that if it weren’t for California agriculture everyone would starve. (And this somehow justifies destroying the Great Lakes and their surrounding ecology for California’s benefit). I provide counter evidence that not everyone is depending on California for their dinner table. You counter I want everyone in the country to starve. Really, the “problem” is that California is already using more water than the surrounding area provides, and the rest of us are no longer willing to give you more of ours. Make do with what you have. Frankly, my area has housing standing empty - we would happily house some more people if they chose to move somewhere (such as here) where there are ample natural water resources. Yes, we _really could_ take in a few million here in the Great Rust Belt, which has easily lost that number over the past 50 years. If California can’t produce more fruit and vegetables (due to constraints on water) there are other places that grow fruit and vegetables - such as my backyard. Remarkably enough, many foods are still grown within my state and neighboring states. I’m not claiming I’m wholly self-sufficient by any means, just that I’m _independent of California_. Other than blockbuster movies I’m not sure, exactly, what the hell California is selling that I buy. I like movies, yes, but they’re a luxury, not an essential. I won’t trade the Great Lakes for Great Movies. Really, I can’t remember the last time I bought food from California. I stopped buying greens from there after all the _E. coli_ outbreaks. All my greens come from my own garden. So do the green beans, beets, turnips, carrots, cucumbers, and other vegetables. Parsley and basil come from my garden. Lettuce comes from garden May through November. The apples, plums, and cherries I eat come from Michigan. The strawberries are local (they used to also come from my garden, but the floods of 2008 destroyed my strawberry bed and I haven’t replaced it). So, no, I don’t believe you that the country would starve without California’s Central Valley. We didn’t starve before then. I certainly eat very well despite ignoring California produce. If some Terrible Tragedy occurred to wipe out the Central Valley now there’d be a brief period of adjustment and discomfort, then we’d get all that stuff from somewhere else. Meanwhile, people might try other food than canned tomatoes and California oranges and avocados. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/138 "2010-06-11T07:15:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Nice moving of the goalposts. Maybe you are reading a different thread. I keep saying that ~40% of the produce grown and used in teh US comes from CA, and withut that, you are going to make a serious dent in the food supply. > [@](#): > > You keep claiming that if it weren’t for California agriculture everyone would starve. (And this somehow justifies destroying the Great Lakes and their surrounding ecology for California’s benefit). I am sure you are going to provide the actual quote for that, right? > [@](#): > > I provide counter evidence that not everyone is depending on California for their dinner table. Unfortunately, I don’t think you said you rely entirely on your own food, but no matter. Even if you do, as I said early on, the issue is not how one person eats, it is how 350 million people eat, and especially how they eat without returning to an 1830s style agrarian economy. > [@](#): > > You counter I want everyone in the country to starve. Maybe there is a parallel thread you are talking about? I don’t think anyone here is talking about starvation. > [@](#): > > Really, the “problem” is that California is already using more water than the surrounding area provides, and the rest of us are no longer willing to give you more of ours. Make do with what you have. So you are willing to condemn the rest of the country to an agrarian economy and/or import foodstuff? OK. > [@](#): > > Frankly, my area has housing standing empty - we would happily house some more people if they chose to move somewhere (such as here) where there are ample natural water resources. Yes, we _really could_ take in a few million here in the Great Rust Belt, which has easily lost that number over the past 50 years. Is there a reason why that population has left? Maybe something to do with jobs? > [@](#): > > If California can’t produce more fruit and vegetables (due to constraints on water) there are other places that grow fruit and vegetables - such as my backyard. Remarkably enough, many foods are still grown within my state and neighboring states. Right - now you grasp the concept of 40% is not 100%. > [@](#): > > I’m not claiming I’m wholly self-sufficient by any means, just that I’m _independent of California_. I would be skeptical of that. Do you ever eat out? Do you ever eat processed foods? > [@](#): > > Other than blockbuster movies I’m not sure, exactly, what the hell California is selling that I buy. I like movies, yes, but they’re a luxury, not an essential. I won’t trade the Great Lakes for Great Movies. Music, technology products and services both seen and unseen, military services, transportation of goods from our port to your door, possibly some fashion, and so on. You might have also missed the part of the thread where I mentioned the Midwest is in more dire need of the Great Lakes water than CA. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/139 "2010-06-11T07:22:38Z")
**alice** , you’re clearly deeply offended by something somebody said, but I don’t remember what it would have been. Could you quote the post(s) in this thread that prompted your initial response? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146/140 "2010-06-11T07:26:11Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Maybe you are reading a different thread. > > I keep saying that ~40% of the produce grown and used in teh US comes from CA, and withut that, you are going to make a serious dent in the food supply. We’d grow it elsewhere if we had to. You know, 40% of the world’s popcorn grows in my area, but I’m not so foolish to think that if some Terrible Occurrence wipe out Indiana’s popcorn crop that no one else anywhere would step in to fill the gap. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, I don’t think you said you rely entirely on your own food, but no matter. Even if you do, as I said early on, the issue is not how one person eats, it is how 350 million people eat, and especially how they eat without returning to an 1830s style agrarian economy. What, you think that no one else in the country practices modern farming? Where do you think the majority of that other 60% of produce comes from? It’s not all imports, you know. > [@](#): > > Is there a reason why that population has left? Maybe something to do with jobs? Also air conditioning and the availability of water, without which much of the Sun Belt would be even more unlivable than a Minnesotan winter. Also - prior to the easy availability out west major industry set up shop around here in part _because_ there was access to water. There still is. > [@](#): > > I would be skeptical of that. Do you ever eat out? Do you ever eat processed foods? I’ve eaten out … hmm… MAYBE three times in the past year. I don’t have much money, you see. Also make almost all my own food from scratch (even things like bread). No, I almost never eat processed foods - as I said, I cook mostly from scratch. I buy condiments and spices, but those come from all over the world. > [@](#): > > Music, technology products and services both seen and unseen, military services, transportation of goods from our port to your door, possibly some fashion, and so on. Music? Most of what I listen to comes from Nashville these days. Military services? What, there are _no military personnel outside California?_ Are you serious? Transportation of WHAT goods? Fashion? I shop at Goodwill (lack of money again). Upon reflection, I suspect a Terrible Occurrence to California would affect the wealthy far more than us poor folks. > [@](#): > > You might have also missed the part of the thread where I mentioned the Midwest is in more dire need of the Great Lakes water than CA. Um… you realize that states like Indiana and Illinois are \*part of \* the Midwest? Yet they manage to grow food without irrigation. Fancy that. Maybe those drier midwestern states should also learn to live with what water they have, instead of demanding others give it to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-from-the-great-lakes/542146.md?page=8)