# Water is older than the Sun--agreeing with Genesis Chapter One **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482 "2018-05-02T23:34:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ned12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@ned12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ned12)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/41 "2018-05-03T01:39:26Z")
Many facts in the Bible concerning creation order (sea animal life was first and notice man is last in first few Genesis Chapters) agree with science. Other facts. One example for now. The Bible shows lions strangle their prey (in Book of Nahum). Until the AD 1970’s it was believed lions broke the prey’s neck now it is a known fact they actually strangle their prey just as Bible writers knew. ---
**Author:** ![ned12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@ned12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ned12)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/42 "2018-05-03T01:49:37Z")
Dinosaur fossils are not turning out to seemingly be anywhere near at least 65 million years old with more blood vessels found in them. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/43 "2018-05-03T01:49:54Z")
Which God though? [El](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)), the Caananite Supreme God, from whom the name IsraEL comes? Or [Yahweh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh), seems to have started out as a hero or son of El and eventually assumed all of El’s trappings? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/44 "2018-05-03T01:51:48Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Many facts in the Bible concerning creation order (sea animal life was first and notice man is last in first few Genesis Chapters) agree with science. Other facts. One example for now. The Bible shows lions strangle their prey (in Book of Nahum). Until the AD 1970’s it was believed lions broke the prey’s neck now it is a known fact they actually strangle their prey just as Bible writers knew. You are going to completely dismiss the 9 billion year descrepency between the earth and the universe ages and then expects us to be blown away by a lion strangling vs breaking it’s prey’s neck? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/45 "2018-05-03T01:52:49Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Dinosaur fossils are not turning out to seemingly be anywhere near at least 65 million years old with more blood vessels found in them. cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/46 "2018-05-03T01:55:34Z")
Are you reading a King James version? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/47 "2018-05-03T02:07:17Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Many facts in the Bible concerning creation order (sea animal life was first and notice man is last in first few Genesis Chapters) agree with science. Other facts. One example for now. The Bible shows lions strangle their prey (in Book of Nahum). Until the AD 1970’s it was believed lions broke the prey’s neck now it is a known fact they actually strangle their prey just as Bible writers knew. Many years ago–I think it was on a different messageboard, but it might have been here–I encountered a Christian who proved the Bible was true because it said that rain caused plants to grow. And how could primitive people possibly understand that was true, without the aid of modern science? Anyway, I was wondering if that was you. ---
**Author:** ![ned12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@ned12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ned12)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/48 "2018-05-03T02:16:20Z")
Iron in soft tissue (attempt to explain dinosaur blood vessels) could not last almost 200 million years. These ages are ridiculously old. The real age of life on Earth is definitely way younger. No time table for natural history should be made but these conventional scientific dates are simply way too old all the same. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/49 "2018-05-03T02:17:05Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Many facts in the Bible concerning creation order (sea animal life was first and notice man is last in first few Genesis Chapters) agree with science. Other facts. One example for now. The Bible shows lions strangle their prey (in Book of Nahum). Until the AD 1970’s it was believed lions broke the prey’s neck now it is a known fact they actually strangle their prey just as Bible writers knew. Facts like on Leviticus, were bats are birds? (I already know the explanations that apologetics have done, many times they have to fall for the explanation that people of the past did not know better, unfortunately that then logically tosses almost all of the Bible as it is then clear that God is not doing the talking, but it was humans writing down about what they thought it was what God did say to them.) BTW I’m not an atheist but an agnostic with deistic tendencies. I do think that if there is a god it will not be a small one as many want it to be, to be a god that is just limited to a pale blue dot in the doldrums of one galaxy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/50 "2018-05-03T02:18:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, let’s be clear about one thing: There was no water on the earth before the sun because there was no earth before the sun. Well, Earth might’ve started to come together before the Sun lit. > [@tomndebb](#): > > If one is going to throw religious quotations into this discussion, one should generally be accurate about the sources. [www.vaticancatholic.com](http://www.vaticancatholic.com) points to the Most Holy Family Monastery, a group of [sedevacantists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) who got mad at the church after the Second Vatican Council and broke away in a schism. One may quote them if one chooses, but they are not honest in including either “vatican” or “catholic” in their name and it is not accurate to use their site to imply that their anti-science essays have anything to do with the Vatican or the Catholic Church. Thank you for that. I was going with, “The Vatican doesn’t even take Genesis literally,” but your way is nicer. ---
**Author:** ![ned12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@ned12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ned12)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/51 "2018-05-03T02:20:03Z")
Location of world’s first civ (Mesopotamia) is given in Bible as well in the location of the Garden of Eden and the first agriculturists there after in the form Cain tiller of the ground after the described expulsion from Eden. ---
**Author:** ![ned12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@ned12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ned12)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/52 "2018-05-03T02:24:26Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > cite, please. Simple logic. There is no way to prove blood vessels (even with laced iron) could survive a time journey a 50th that long. The vessels would have all disappeared a long time ago and nothing would be left in the fossil after after some tens of thousand years tops. Dinosaurs may have been gone more than 25,000 years but 65 million and way more than that number of years is purely idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/53 "2018-05-03T02:32:55Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Iron in soft tissue (attempt to explain dinosaur blood vessels) could not last almost 200 million years. These ages are ridiculously old. The real age of life on Earth is definitely way younger. No time table for natural history should be made but these conventional scientific dates are simply way too old all the same. Actually the reverse is ridiculous, it points to the issue of not having really a good explanation of why ancient Egyptians continued with their civilization when a universal deluge supposedly destroyed everything. > **[Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)** > > A list of questions which the story of Noah's Ark and a global flood leave unanswered and probably unanswerable, such as: How did all the fish survive? and, When did granite batholiths form? > [@](#): > > Why is there no mention of the Flood in the records of Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations which existed at the time? Biblical dates (I Kings 6:1, Gal 3:17, various generation lengths given in Genesis) place the Flood 1300 years before Solomon began the first temple. We can construct reliable chronologies for near Eastern history, particularly for Egypt, from many kinds of records from the literate cultures in the near East. These records are independent of, but supported by, dating methods such as dendrochronology and carbon-14. The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 B.C. +/- some small delta, placing the Flood around 2250 B.C. Unfortunately, the Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid, for example dates to the 26th century B.C., 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood). No sign in Egyptian inscriptions of this global flood around 2250 B.C. It is even more ridiculous when one wonders why or who would bother to recreate and continue that “heretic” civilization after “the flood” Now that is dealing with the silliness of a young earth, about how old the earth and the dinosaurs are: > **[Dino Blood and the Young Earth](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/blood.html)** > > Creationists falsely claim that researchers have found intact blood cells and hemoglobin. > [@](#): > > Concluding Remarks > > Answers in Genesis Ministry generally, and Carl Wieland CEO-Australia specifically, are the principal sources of the creationists’ repeated falsehood that dinosaurs are modern because blood cells and hemoglobin have been found in fresh bone. There are in fact five gross errors in just those few words that originated with Wieland and Answers in Genesis. These falsehoods are found commonly repeated throughout the creationist literature. We have demonstrated above that Carl Wieland, writing for Answers in Genesis, falsely represented this research to his readers. Minimally any objective reader should be satisfied that within the scientific literature, a) “red blood cells” have not been found in dinosaur bone, b) Schweitzer did not say that there were “red blood cells” in her specimens, c) hemoglobin was not found in dinosaur bone, d) Schweitzer did not say that hemoglobin was found in dinosaur bone, e) Wieland has grossly falsified his account of this research, if he ever read the scientific presentations at all. As Wieland never cited the scientific literature, it is presumed that he never bothered to become informed about the issues that he wrote about. If, however, he has read the actual science, he is guilty of more than “willful ignorance”, and has actively lied to a trusting public. Schweitzer did make some early remarks to news reporters that were easily exploited by creationists such as Wieland. Even the popularized version of Schweitzer’s work was distorted through selective quoting and direct misrepresentation. This is a common problem when trying to communicate science - anything that can be misinterpreted by creationists probably will be. But the test of science is in the scientific literature, and at no point did her speculative remarks enter the scientific dialog. > > Serious questions of credibility are raised by the falsehoods and misrepresentations exposed above. The dino-blood chimera has been widely promoted by Answers in Genesis. Wieland wrote - > > ``` > "Such is the stifling effect of the evolutionary dogma that scientists can be blinded to the clear implications of their own data." [Wieland 2002] > > ``` > > The irony is palpable. No scientist could continue his or her career guilty of such shoddy work, but we predict that there will be no negative consequence to Wieland or his organization. If you “own” the truth, you apparently needn’t stint at falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/54 "2018-05-03T02:34:37Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Simple logic. There is no way to prove blood vessels (even with laced iron) could survive a time journey a 50th that long. The vessels would have all disappeared a long time ago and nothing would be left in the fossil after after some tens of thousand years tops. Dinosaurs may have been gone more than 25,000 years but 65 million and way more than that number of years is purely idiotic. As pointed in the cite, it is idiotic because some yahoos misinterpreted or continue to falsify what the researchers actually found. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/55 "2018-05-03T02:37:12Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Simple logic. There is no way to prove blood vessels (even with laced iron) could survive a time journey a 50th that long. The vessels would have all disappeared a long time ago and nothing would be left in the fossil after after some tens of thousand years tops. Dinosaurs may have been gone more than 25,000 years but 65 million and way more than that number of years is purely idiotic. Well then, there’s no way for all those pointy-headed godless intellectual secular humanist “scientists” to prove that “water is older than the Sun”, either, thus making this entire line of argument completely pointless. Like I said: You trumpet the findings of science when they seem to confirm your holy book, and you blithely ignore or flatly deny the findings of science when they contradict your holy book. Why not just leave science out of it? “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!” is the traditional way to put it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/56 "2018-05-03T02:54:24Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Iron in soft tissue (attempt to explain dinosaur blood vessels) could not last almost 200 million years. Okay, why not? Iron is a mostly-stable element and does not deteriorate over time, and its most common isotopes have very long half-lives. Most of the iron present when the Earth came together is still here and still iron. > [@](#): > > These ages are ridiculously old. The real age of life on Earth is definitely way younger. No time table for natural history should be made but these conventional scientific dates are simply way too old all the same. You seem to have no understanding of what sort of time we’re talking about. Yes, if you are a Young Earth Creationist and believe that Creation began (Bishop Ussher’s calculation) at round 6 PM on 22 October, 4004 BC you could argue that none of the current scientific understandings of how things happened have had time to take place without heavy intervention by a godlike being, but if you make any study of any part of nature without trying to forcefit it into your religious beliefs you will find that life, the universe, and everything are stupendously old. And eventually you might ask why the good Bishop had God saying, “Let there be light,” at sundown. Even after 350 years I still can’t answer that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/57 "2018-05-03T03:01:00Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > A universe cannot create itself out of literally nothing. There has to be a creator outside of science was we understand it. What scientific theory claims there was ever a time when there was nothing in the universe? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/58 "2018-05-03T03:03:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If one is going to throw religious quotations into this discussion, one should generally be accurate about the sources. [www.vaticancatholic.com](http://www.vaticancatholic.com) points to the Most Holy Family Monastery, a group of [sedevacantists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) who got mad at the church after the Second Vatican Council and broke away in a schism. One may quote them if one chooses, but they are not honest in including either “vatican” or “catholic” in their name and it is not accurate to use their site to imply that their anti-science essays have anything to do with the Vatican or the Catholic Church. It’s the Judean Popular People’s Front. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/59 "2018-05-03T03:07:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually the reverse is ridiculous, it points to the issue of not having really a good explanation of why ancient Egyptians continued with their civilization when a universal deluge supposedly destroyed everything. It’s even worse than that! Sumerian civilization dates to BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/60 "2018-05-03T03:24:39Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > A universe cannot create itself out of literally nothing. There has to be a creator outside of science was we understand it. We don’t know that “literally nothing” existed before the universe did. The Big Bang is as far back as we can look (and probably as far back as we will ever be able to look) but the conditions before that (if “before” has any meaning in that sense) are purely speculative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482.md?page=4)