# Water is older than the Sun--agreeing with Genesis Chapter One **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482 "2018-05-02T23:34:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/61 "2018-05-03T03:54:06Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It’s even worse than that! Sumerian civilization dates to BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE! :eek: And the Sumerians worshipped the Sky God **Anu** as the father god and a large pantheon of others. _Anu was believed to be the supreme source of all authority, for the other gods and for all mortal rulers, and he is described in one text as the one “who contains the entire universe”._ ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/62 "2018-05-03T04:13:12Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > A universe cannot create itself out of literally nothing. There has to be a creator outside of science was we understand it. This is the opposite of common physical reality. “Nothing”, howsoever you define it, is more than slightly difficult to study, so making pronouncements about it strains even absurdity. But what we do know is that “nothing” would have to be in uniform isotropic equilibrium, which is a pinnacle state. In other words, “nothing” would be inherently unstable: in its very condition of balance, it would have a natural tendency to move off its pinnacle state. In other words, not only could “nothing” create the universe, it absolutely would. No creator is required for a thing (or no thing) to do what it must do. All this assuming that there ever really was a universal creation. To assume that the universe is like unto everything in it, with a time-bound existence, is an unfounded assumption. It very well could have been here all along. Having pat answers to these difficult questions serves no one. We can explore the weirdness of reality, as long as no one is barring our path. Churches, _et al_, have tried to tell us not to go there, because their book has all the answers. But what we have found in our ventures into the unknown has been far more interesting and beautiful than the ancient tales, and almost entirely unlike them. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/63 "2018-05-03T09:32:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know about that. I think people living to be 900 years old is pretty impressive! Much less impressive when you realize that those are dog years. 😉 For dogs have surrounded me _– Psalm 22:16_ ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/64 "2018-05-03T09:39:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Churches, _et al_, have tried to tell us not to go there, because their book has all the answers. Literally. When Stephen Hawking had an audience with the Pope (I think it was John Paul II, but am not positive) he was explicitly told not to inquire about the origin of the universe. Ironically, he was just then postulating his “imaginary time” hypothesis (the Hartle-Hawking state). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/65 "2018-05-03T10:41:34Z")
So 12 is Ned’s age, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/66 "2018-05-03T11:27:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know what else is impressive? _We are stardust_! And the Earth is made from half a million stones, Q.E.D.! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/67 "2018-05-03T11:49:57Z")
Genesis would have been written with a mind towards creating the things necessary for life in priority order. For a person with no understanding of the insulating effect of the atmosphere, water would seem to be more necessary for life than the Sun. Ergo, water comes in first. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/68 "2018-05-03T12:31:53Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So 12 is Ned’s age, right? Knock it off. This is not appropriate for this forum. I’d you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/69 "2018-05-03T13:03:54Z")
How does one date the age of water? You can age the date of some stuff suspended in the water, but by definition a water molecule that formed a hundred million years ago is exactly the same as one formed yesterday. > [@ned12](#): > > Simple logic. There is no way to prove blood vessels (even with laced iron) could survive a time journey a 50th that long. The vessels would have all disappeared a long time ago and nothing would be left in the fossil after after some tens of thousand years tops. Dinosaurs may have been gone more than 25,000 years but 65 million and way more than that number of years is purely idiotic. I’m not sure you understand what a “fossil” is. They aren’t literally the bones of dinosaurs and whatnot. There are a couple of different processes, but basically a fossil is really minerals and rock that have filled in the space where the bones and other parts of the animal used to be. You are correct that the tissues themselves do not last millions of years. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/70 "2018-05-03T13:11:22Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > I am new here. But the big news I am bring can be discovered in the first chapter of the Old Testament or Discover Magazine Sep. 2014. For years it baffled humanity how there was possibly water before there was a sun and now it is a scientific fact. Bible grows more accuarte all the time (paths of the sea and Mathew Maury anyone?). Welcome my brother, and as-salaam alaikum. God has opened your eyes to the truth of His wondrous creation. Here is a magnificent resource for revealing the truth of God’s power and majesty and how ancient texts have been proven true by modern science: [The Qur'an and Science: Scientific Miracles in the Holy Book](https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/the-quran-and-modern-science-3/) Allahu akbar! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/71 "2018-05-03T13:17:17Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > Simple logic. There is no way to prove blood vessels (even with laced iron) could survive a time journey a 50th that long. The vessels would have all disappeared a long time ago and nothing would be left in the fossil after after some tens of thousand years tops. Dinosaurs may have been gone **more than 25,000 years** but 65 million and way more than that number of years is purely idiotic. (Bolding mine) Heretic! Don’t you know the bible is very explicit about the earth being less than 10,000 years old? More than 25,000 years… What kind of christian are you? Were you even awake during sunday school? I mean, clearly your _science_ chops are better than mine, as I thought those big ol’ bones were the nephilim and dragons and leviathans described in the bible, but I think you need to work on your _god-fearin’_ chops! Because there’s no such thing as “25,000” years ago, and there never will be, what with the end time comin’ soon! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/72 "2018-05-03T13:46:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > How does one date the age of water? You can age the date of some stuff suspended in the water, but by definition a water molecule that formed a hundred million years ago is exactly the same as one formed yesterday. Water is water, except for when it is heavy water. Going from [this](https://www.cnet.com/news/earths-water-older-than-the-sun-came-from-interstellar-ice/) summary: the scientists were trying to determine if the majority of the water on Earth was derived from pre-exsisting ices in the dust cloud that formed the solar system or if it was created by chemical processes during the formation of the solar system. They looked at the ratio of heavy water on Earth and did some computer modeling. The computer models suggest that the water needed to be old to have the observed amount of heavy water. > [@msmith537](#): > > You are correct that the tissues themselves do not last millions of years. Except for [when they do](https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2017/0131/How-a-195-million-year-old-dinosaur-bone-could-still-have-soft-tissue-in-it). (I picked that article because it was one of the most recent, there are many others.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/73 "2018-05-03T14:23:00Z")
It must suck for ned12 when he has to take his disobedient children outside the city gates to be stoned to death. (Deut 21: 18-21) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/74 "2018-05-03T14:31:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It must suck for ned12 when he has to take his disobedient children outside the city gates to be stoned to death. (Deut 21: 18-21) I don’t get the impression ned12 is a literal adherent. Rather, if there was a real-life example of someone who had taken his child to a city gate and stoned him or her to death, ned12 would take that as evidence in support of the historical accuracy of the bible. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/75 "2018-05-03T15:04:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, let’s be clear about one thing: There was no water on the earth before the sun because there was no earth before the sun. There wasn’t an Earth for the water to be on before the sun either. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/76 "2018-05-03T15:21:48Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > I am new here. But the big news I am bring can be discovered in the first chapter of the Old Testament or Discover Magazine Sep. 2014. For years it baffled humanity how there was possibly water before there was a sun and now it is a scientific fact. Bible grows more accuarte all the time (paths of the sea and Mathew Maury anyone?). So, to address this, claiming that the Bible was accurate because water is older than the formation of the Sun is really a stretch. It’s pretty clear that the narrative int he Bible had God creating the heaven and earth, along with the waters and then bringing the light (presumably turning on the sun). This isn’t what happened, however, and saying that water existed before the sun somehow proves this narrative is simply wrong. It’s definitely true that H2O existed before the Sun, but then so did the gas and dust that comprised both the Sun and the rest of the solar system, having come from previously exploding stars. The Bible would only be getting 'more accurate all the time) if it’s narrative actually described what happened, not simply taking one factoid (water is older than the Sun) and using that to demonstrate what you are asserting. And it doesn’t. [Here](http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/documents/bible_genesis_en.html) is the Bible’s narrative on this: > [@](#): > > [1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, > [1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. > [1:3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. > [1:4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. > [1:5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. Except we know that the Sun is older than the Earth. The elements that comprise what would become the Earth, eventually, are older than the formation of the Sun, but then the elements that comprise the Sun are older than the formation of the Sun as well. The Sun, however, formed first, and the Earth formed later…actually quite a bit later, since the at least one theory holds that the Earth is a 2nd generation planet. Also, the early Earth didn’t have standing water…couldn’t have it in fact, since the planet was molten (nothing in the Bible about any of this). The current theory, as far as I know, has water being delivered to the Earth during the late heavy bombardment phase of the solar system. This would have been long after the first day and long after the planet formed (heck, if they are right about this being a second generation planet then the original super Earth that was in our approximate orbit got blown away by a massive collision, and even the Earth obtained it’s moon by having something the size of Mars glance off of us). Sorry that you got all excited about the fact that water is older than the formation of the Sun, but it’s really not that much news here, nor does it prove the Bible happened or is getting ‘more accuarte all the time’. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/77 "2018-05-03T15:38:13Z")
Dammit, I think you guys scared him away. That was fun to read! ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/78 "2018-05-03T15:40:23Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > “Nothing”, howsoever you define it, is more than slightly difficult to study, so making pronouncements about it strains even absurdity. But what we do know is that “nothing” would have to be in uniform isotropic equilibrium, which is a pinnacle state. If you’re listing properties of this state, then are we really talking about nothing? The creationists complain that we can’t use the laws of physics (quantum uncertainty) to talk about the origin of the universe, since if the laws of physics are in effect, it’s not really nothing. But that same point comes back to bite them. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/79 "2018-05-03T15:42:11Z")
> [@ned12](#): > > (paths of the sea and Mathew Maury anyone?). If you’re still here, can you explain the relevance of this? I read the wiki article you cited, and I still have no clue why you reference it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482/80 "2018-05-03T15:42:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Dammit, I think you guys scared him away. That was fun to read! I blame **iiandyiiii**. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > …Allahu akbar! This is why we can never make new friends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-is-older-than-the-sun-agreeing-with-genesis-chapter-one/813482.md?page=5)