# Water Witching **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 11, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722 "2009-09-11T19:42:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/161 "2009-10-04T17:32:15Z")
> [@RJKUgly](#): > > I actually suggested sending the “answer key” as it were to a third party prior to **pramanujan** giving his answers to rule out the possibility that I changed my answers after the fact. **pramanujan** declined, but I’m still willing to do so. However it really has little bearing on whether I’m lying or not, as I could still simply lie about who is alive or dead. But I am more than willing to send the answers now. Would you be willing to act as a third party? Fine by me. > [@RJKUgly](#): > > As for the other questions, I know I gave a clue, but not a big one. And **pramanujan** in this thread has said that only one time did the rods show a negative reaction for a living person, and apparently never have shown a neutral or positive reaction for a dead person. Of course this may not be the case, we will see. > > If **pramanujan** comes back with a good score then a more rigorous test can be entertained. I won’t respond directly to the other point here as I don’t want give any more clues. Don’t give any clues! What % success does pramanujan say he can achieve? What is a ‘good score’? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/162 "2009-10-04T17:35:06Z")
Let’s see if I understand this image test. **Pramanujan** says:[ul][li]The rods respond one way for a live person, another for a dead one.[_]Except for the times it is reversed.[_]And the TV screen interferes with the analysis.[/ul][/li]I don’t see how he can lose. Even if he is wrong, he is right, because maybe the rods worked backwards that time, or the TV interefered. Not just one, but multiple outs. This test is stupid, and won’t give any valid conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/163 "2009-10-04T17:46:25Z")
> [@jeanjaz](#): > > The people who are able to dowse don’t know how it works … If you can find one people who is able to dowse, and he hasn’t yet won the Million Dollar Challenge, which only takes a few hours and very little equipment, what does that say about the claim? It makes no sense to talk about how something works until you know that it does. Prove that first, then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![JimOfAllTrades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@JimOfAllTrades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimOfAllTrades)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/164 "2009-10-04T17:46:36Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Fine by me. Cool! I’ve sent the answers to the email address from your profile. > [@glee](#): > > Don’t give any clues! > > What % success does pramanujan say he can achieve? > > What is a ‘good score’? Let’s ask him. **pramanujan** , how many of the 50 do you think will be correctly identified? ---
**Author:** ![JimOfAllTrades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@JimOfAllTrades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimOfAllTrades)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/165 "2009-10-04T18:14:14Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Let’s see if I understand this image test. **Pramanujan** says:[ul][li]The rods respond one way for a live person, another for a dead one.[_]Except for the times it is reversed.[_]And the TV screen interferes with the analysis.[/ul][/li]I don’t see how he can lose. Even if he is wrong, he is right, because maybe the rods worked backwards that time, or the TV interefered. Not just one, but multiple outs. > > This test is stupid, and won’t give any valid conclusion. No real argument from me. But presumably doing his test using the printed pictures (which he has said he will do) will eliminate any possible interference from the monitor. At any rate, I’m not interested in how the rods actually move, only in **Pramanujan** ’s interpretation and final verdict for each picture. He will say which of the pictures he thinks show people who are dead and which ones show people who are alive. I don’t care how he gets that answer, if he get’s them correct, that will certainly be cause for additional investigation no matter what method he employs. If he doesn’t get them correct, well then we’ll be back where we started, having learned nothing. But what the hell, I didn’t have anything better to do for a couple of hours anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/166 "2009-10-04T18:19:45Z")
Shhh…don’t tell Pramanujan about Google image search. ---
**Author:** ![JimOfAllTrades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@JimOfAllTrades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimOfAllTrades)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/167 "2009-10-05T01:40:02Z")
It has been suggested, and I think it’s a good idea, that if a few other people looked at the pictures and made guesses, that would give us a baseline to judge against as to whether any particular level of success is out of the ordinary. Any other takers want to look at 50 pictures and guess alive or dead? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/168 "2009-10-05T02:31:29Z")
Here are my picks, inside a spoiler tag for no apparent reason: f01 - Alive f02 - Alive f03 - Dead f04 - Dead f05 - Alive f06 - Dead f07 - Alive f08 - Alive f09 - Alive f10 - Dead f11 - Alive f12 - Alive f13 - Dead f14 - Dead f15 - Alive f16 - Alive f17 - Alive f18 - Alive f19 - Dead f20 - Dead f21 - Alive f22 - Alive f23 - Dead f24 - Alive f25 - Dead f26 - Alive f27 - Alive f28 - Alive f29 - Dead f30 - Dead f31 - Alive f32 - Alive f33 - Alive f34 - Dead f35 - Alive f36 - Alive f37 - Dead f38 - Dead f39 - Dead f40 - Dead f41 - Alive f42 - Alive f43 - Alive f44 - Alive f45 - Alive f46 - Alive f47 - Dead f48 - Alive f49 - Alive f50 - Dead ---
**Author:** ![JimOfAllTrades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@JimOfAllTrades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimOfAllTrades)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/169 "2009-10-05T02:59:48Z")
Thanks for helping out. Obviously I won’t post the answers until all the replies are in. ---
**Author:** ![pramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/91b2a8/32.png) [@pramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pramanujan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/170 "2009-10-05T03:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s see if I understand this image test. Pramanujan says: > > ``` > * The rods respond one way for a live person, another for a dead one. > * Except for the times it is reversed. > * And the TV screen interferes with the analysis. > > ``` Let me clarify: Since the pictures were went by email, I just opened the mail and saw them. One by one I tested them with the dowsing rod, anticipating any interference from the computer. This was the first time I tried it on the computer monitor. But let me assure you. The test was full success. The TV screen did not interfere with the results. Normally, when you hold the pictures, of dead persons, facing south direction, the rods swing outwardly. This has happened with the monitor too. I now understand that the medium on which the image is does not have any effect on the result. To be more sure, I will come back today with the results after getting the prints. It is my experience that a blank monitor or for that matter most of the electronic and electrical equipments radiates negative energy (i.e. the rods move inwardly). But when an image of a person is seen on the screen, the rods react differently. Please be patient. I shall let you know the results soon. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/171 "2009-10-05T03:06:11Z")
> [@jeanjaz](#): > > But I am not a skeptic and I’m proud of it… Pssst, jeanjaz, you’ve just posted this on a board where the regulars all consider themselves to be skeptics. > [@](#): > > … because the universe has so many wonders yet to explore and I want to have an open mind to see them all when they come and the only way to do that is never to come to the conclusion that I’ve got anything so all figured out that I don’t need to learn anything more about it. Now I get it - you don’t know what a skeptic is. A skeptic is a person who withholds belief until sufficient evidence is found, but a skeptic always has an open mind, so if new evidence comes out the skeptic can change his mind. The skeptical position is the most open-minded way to live, because nothing is given preferential status - everything you believe has to have a reason to believe it. It also entails learning the common mistakes people make, and the way they end up fooling themselves. It’s something to be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/172 "2009-10-05T05:36:32Z")
> [@pramanujan](#): > > Please be patient. I shall let you know the results soon. How many do you expect to get right? How reliable is your power? ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/173 "2009-10-05T06:04:20Z")
> [@RJKUgly](#): > > Good thought! You want to give it a try? Anyone else? Count me in. But explain the deal. You will be sending me 50 photos of dead and alive people, and I am to determine which is which? I’m not at all sure how that is supposed to be done. ---
**Author:** ![JimOfAllTrades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@JimOfAllTrades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimOfAllTrades)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/174 "2009-10-05T06:23:12Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > Count me in. > > But explain the deal. You will be sending me 50 photos of dead and alive people, and I am to determine which is which? > > I’m not at all sure how that is supposed to be done. The 50 photos were all taken when the people were alive, some have died since. You mission, should you decide to accept it, is to determine which are still alive and which have died. **pramanujan** says he can do this by using dowsing rods over the pictures. We’re trying to get an idea of how many can be correctly determined or guessed correctly by someone not claiming to use paranormal means. This means you’re going to be pretty much guessing. If you want to try, I’ll send you a copy of the 50 photos. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/175 "2009-10-05T07:04:26Z")
Not sure if this predates the challenge, but wasn’t there a guy who claimed he could identify records just by looking at them who Randi challenged and whose ability was legit? He was challenged by Randi, delivered, but because he never claimed it was paranormal wasn’t able to claim the prize? > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > [2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge? > .. > Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.](http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-faq.html) > I sense a Dopefest… ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/176 "2009-10-05T08:54:53Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > Not sure if this predates the challenge, but wasn’t there a guy who claimed he could identify records just by looking at them who Randi challenged and whose ability was legit? He was challenged by Randi, delivered, but because he never claimed it was paranormal wasn’t able to claim the prize? This is incorrect. Read about it here: > **[Science / Medicine : The Man Who Could Read the Grooves](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-10-19-me-10336-story.html)** > > In 1982, Dr. In short, Time magazine heard of the guy (Arthur Lintgen) and wanted to find out whether he was legit, and they called in Randi because of his experience with testing unusual claims. Randi didn’t challenge him (except in the sense of testing him when asked by Time to do so) and it wasn’t done as part of “the Challenge” for the prize. As far as I know, no one involved said anything about “paranormal”. Whether Randi would prior to the test have accepted Lintgen’s claimed ability for the prize if the issue had been raised is a moot point: as far as I know Randi has never commented. I tend to assume not, since he usually only seems to accept abiilties for challenge that are either claimed to be paranormal by the claimant, or which are so manifestly outside reality that (regardless of the claimant’s view) they would be paranormal abilities if they were real. In other words, in the latter instance it is not necessary that _the claimant_ says that their ability is paranormal, it is sufficient for Randi to decide that he will challenge someone, regardless. He has accepted any number of dowsers for the challenge and my understanding is that many say they have no paranormal ability. He has challenged absurd claims by hifi buffs despite the fact that they would usually say that their claims are based on technology and science. ---
**Author:** ![Vorpal\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9de0a6/32.png) [@Vorpal\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vorpal_Blade)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/177 "2009-10-05T12:44:46Z")
Just posting to subscribe. Want to see results of the test. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/178 "2009-10-05T13:01:33Z")
> [@RJKUgly](#): > > Good thought! You want to give it a try? Anyone else? I’d like to try. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/179 "2009-10-05T13:06:49Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > But explain the deal. You will be sending me 50 photos of dead and alive people, and I am to determine which is which? > > I’m not at all sure how that is supposed to be done. Like this, silly. Hold your dowsing rod(s) up to the computer screen. > [@Pramanujan](#): > > Normally, when you hold the pictures, of dead persons, facing south direction, the rods swing outwardly. …It is my experience that a blank monitor or for that matter most of the electronic and electrical equipments radiates negative energy (i.e. the rods move inwardly). But when an image of a person is seen on the screen, the rods react differently. See? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722/180 "2009-10-05T13:30:02Z")
[QUOTE=RJKUgly] I’ll even give you a hint and tell you that the majority are still alive. [/QUOTE] For all people taking the baseline test, this information is available to the test subject as well. You may/should use it in your guesses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water-witching/509722.md?page=10)