# water **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245 "2015-03-17T23:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/101 "2015-04-09T21:54:24Z")
Its because so many of the people who keep truckin’ on down the line are vegetarians. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/102 "2015-04-09T21:56:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The International Joint Commission disagrees with your assessment. All of the Great Lakes states plus Ontario and Quebec have a say in where Great Lakes water is diverted. No, they agree with me just fine. I was responding to the hypothetical “…unless Wisconsin or Michigan decide to let them build a pipeline from the Great Lakes”. Neither state has the jurisdiction to ram through a water pipeline just because the water is lapping on their shoreline. Neither could all Great Lakes states together, because it’s subject to an international agreement. It’s everybody’s water, and “having a say” is not the same as “jurisdiction”. > [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > You guys didn’t think I was being serious about piping water from the Great Lakes to California, did you? You may not have been serious, but potentially disastrous water-theft schemes are proposed from time to time by those who are. I occasionally have trouble seeing implied smiley-faces. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/103 "2015-04-09T22:15:34Z")
Got bad news and good news. Bad news is that next year, we start drinking sewer water. Good news is, there’s not enough to go around. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/104 "2015-04-09T22:18:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Got bad news and good news. Bad news is that next year, we start drinking sewer water. Good news is, there’s not enough to go around. Having spent time growing up in El Paso, thank you for reminding me of the beautiful Rio Grande. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/105 "2015-04-09T22:34:21Z")
Looking at how dubiously sustainable the development of North America has turned out, no wonder Americans love their apocalyptic fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/106 "2015-04-09T22:40:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s short for [“truck farming”,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_garden) a type of small scale farming known by a variety of names. I think the notion is that the output is small enough to put in a truck and drive to market or buyers, rather than needing huge silos or railroad cars. Or something. It’s one of those terms with murky origins. “Truck” appears repeatedly throughout _Huckleberry Finn_ to mean “stuff”. I suspect it is the origin of the vehicle name (as in, a car for hauling truck). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/107 "2015-04-09T22:43:15Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Having spent time growing up in El Paso, thank you for reminding me of the beautiful Rio Grande. Hell, spent many an hour by the picturesque Brazos “River”. Wasn’t there the day that the snap turtles and catfish dragged themselves out and walked to Louisiana… ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/108 "2015-04-10T00:52:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It lacks finesse. We’d prefer to do some strategic targeting, rather than just “soak the poor.” The cumbersome system of subsidies requires adjustment, no doubt upon it, but just throwing away all subsidies and shouting, “Do I hear fifty, fifty, do I hear fifty-five…” is a shitten pseudo-solution. The “invisible hand” has no fine dexterity. What about giving all households 100 gallons/day\* of free (or cheap) water and then letting the rest go where ever the money is? I could even imagine a poor family “selling” some of its allotment for the going rate. - - Or whatever is deemed reasonable. It would probably be based on per-person/household. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/109 "2015-04-10T00:56:43Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > What about giving all households 100 gallons/day\* of free (or cheap) water and then letting the rest go where ever the money is? I could even imagine a poor family “selling” some of its allotment for the going rate. > > - > - Or whatever is deemed reasonable. It would probably be based on per-person/household. That’s a good start. I don’t think it goes far enough. I’d like to see quite a bit more targeted regulations. But a base support level for personal use is a very, very good starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/110 "2015-04-10T01:23:10Z")
Environmental groups could buy water and not use it. Maybe the Colorado would actually run to the sea. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/111 "2015-04-10T01:33:00Z")
I understand that Coors uses a lot of water for their, ah, product. Couldn’t that be better used bathing shelter pets? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/112 "2015-04-10T01:39:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But. Another issue - agriculture in CA may provide only 2% of the economy but it provides many more of the jobs. They may be low paying jobs and in terms of total economy way offset by the income of the 1%ers (and even the 5%ers) in the tech and entertainment industries, but there are a lot of them, barely hanging on with those incomes. > > A large number of those marginally employed workers becoming unemployed would be a very significant issue. no sympathy here. in 2008-2010, when the CDO/MBS shenanigans helped kneecap the US auto industry, I read a bunch of shit which boiled down to “Fuck Detroit.” Well, you know what? Right now I’m saying “Fuck California,” and I mean it. Turnabout is fair play. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/113 "2015-04-10T06:34:20Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Has anyone mentioned realistic pricing yet? This is Econ 101. When you have a shortage, you raise the price. End of problem. Market pricing? Don’t be ridiculous. This is _water_ we’re discussing: different rules apply. Apply scarcity pricing and California rice farmers will have to do something else. The number one water crop in California is alfalfa - we export the stuff to China. That’s [15% of the state’s water usage there](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/05/_10_percent_of_california_s_water_goes_to_almond_farming.html). Are you suggesting that the California milk industry buy alfalfa from out of state? That’s like saying that US farmers are skilled businessfolk who actually pretty adept at responding to input and output price fluctuations. Desalinization is fine and well but yeah what we really need is market pricing. Adjustment can occur through crop switching, drip irrigation and greater use of grey water. Energy is conserved when its price rises. The same should be true of water. > **[7 key facts about the drought](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/04/everything-you-wanted-know-about-california-drought/)** > > Everything you ever wanted to know about California's drought but were too afraid to ask. Ag share of CA economy: > **[Economy of California](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California#Agriculture)** > > The economy of the State of California is the largest in the United States, with a $4.080 trillion gross state product (GSP) as of 2024. It is the largest sub-national economy in the world. If California were a nation it would rank in terms of nominal GDP as the world's fourth largest economy, behind Germany and ahead of Japan (4.070 trillion). Additionally, California's Silicon Valley is home to some of the world's most valuable technology companies, including Apple, Alphabet, and Nvidia. A... 42.6/2050 = 2.1%. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/114 "2015-04-10T06:40:12Z")
“Grey water”? Dare I ask? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/115 "2015-04-10T07:09:57Z")
See post #103. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/116 "2015-04-10T07:14:37Z")
More seriously, [Greywater - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greywater) It’s different from blackwater. You don’t drink it (yet! bwhahahaaha). It’s used for irrigation and in toilets in Europe, Australia and other places that have adopted the International Plumbing Code. ETA: That said, in Orange County they go full circle: [Sewage in O.C. goes full circle](http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/02/local/me-reclaim2) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/117 "2015-04-10T11:09:01Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > You don’t drink it (yet! bwhahahaaha). Unless it gets dumped into a river, where the next city pulls it out. El Paso has been drinking Albuquerque’s sewage for decades. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/118 "2015-04-10T14:18:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It lacks finesse. We’d prefer to do some strategic targeting, rather than just “soak the poor.” The cumbersome system of subsidies requires adjustment, no doubt upon it, but just throwing away all subsidies and shouting, “Do I hear fifty, fifty, do I hear fifty-five…” is a shitten pseudo-solution. The “invisible hand” has no fine dexterity. Dude, [you don’t even have to raise prices on residential usage](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/03/the-california-water-shortage-again.html). Bathtubs and drinking water aren’t the problem. Agriculture is pretty much the entire problem. If farmers had to pay market prices for water, they wouldn’t be flooding the desert to grow rice. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/119 "2015-04-10T14:37:50Z")
Regarding market pricing … Water is a bit different than many other products such that you cannot price it such that the poor cannot afford it. For the cautionary tale look at what happened when [Detroit](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29697767) tried to shut off water to those who were not paying their bills for it. > [@](#): > > “It is contrary to human rights to disconnect water from people who simply do not have the means to pay their bills,” Ms de Albuquerque, UN special rapporteur on the human right to safe drinking water and sanitation, wrote in a statement on Monday. … The pricing level that would provoke major agricultural shifts away from high profit water intense crops is likely high enough to impact the poor disproportionately. Those with mansions and pools on the other hand can likely pay the premium. I’ll still buy my almonds at a buck or two more a bag. When dealing with items like clean air and access to water a pure market system runs up against what many would consider human rights. The solution needs to protect those who are living on the margins, both in terms of cost of the water they need to live, and in terms of employment. Market pricing needs to be part of the solution but it needs to be finessed so that the harms do not include pricing the poor out of access to water or causing the loss of many jobs as a consequence. Not exactly sure what that should look like though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245/120 "2015-04-10T14:51:56Z")
Can someone explain water pricing in California to me? It seems like there [is](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-07-24/california-water-prices-soar-for-farmers-as-drought-grows) market pricing and farmers are paying more. > [@](#): > > Farmers in California’s Central Valley, the world’s most productive agricultural region, are paying as much as 10 times more for water than they did before the state’s record drought cut supply. > Costs have soared to $1,100 per acre-foot from about $140 a year ago … Again though, the result of higher prices is to use what they can get and afford to buy to protect the highest value investments - the nut trees. A long switch to drought tolerant almond root stock, for example, or to a greater number of olive trees, does not happen in volatile pricing environment. Noted though that residential access can be protected while increasing agriculture costs … but you still need to keep the industry alive (and employing) while motivating long term changes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/water/715245.md?page=7)