# Watership Down spoiler **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084 "2019-09-12T02:05:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/21 "2019-09-13T01:00:46Z")
^ John Dies at the End. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/22 "2019-09-13T01:32:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It seems unusual to kill off the protagonist in an afterward. Well, it happens in Tolkien’s _Return of the King_. And in T.H. White’s _The Once and Future King_. And in Robert Graves’ _Claudius the God_. And arguably in the movie _Titanic_. It’s really not that unusual for a fictional work that depicts great dramatic events in the protagonist’s life to include the end of their life in old age as its closing scene after the drama is over. (Happens in Willa Cather’s _Death Comes for the Archbishop_ too, but there the title is something of a giveaway.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/23 "2019-09-13T02:24:12Z")
It’s not just that Hazel goes to Rabbit Heaven. By the end of the book, he _is_ El-Ahrairah, and just doesn’t realize it. El-Ahrairah lives on through the legendary deeds of all rabbits, and all rabbits who perform legendary deeds live on as El-Ahrairah. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/24 "2019-09-13T09:48:36Z")
“A Chief Rabbit must be El-Ahrairah to his people, and keep them from death.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/25 "2019-09-13T13:22:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s not just that Hazel goes to Rabbit Heaven. By the end of the book, he _is_ El-Ahrairah, and just doesn’t realize it. El-Ahrairah lives on through the legendary deeds of all rabbits, and all rabbits who perform legendary deeds live on as El-Ahrairah. I thought it was El-Ahrairah who came and asked Hazel to join his owsla. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/26 "2019-09-13T13:47:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought it was El-Ahrairah who came and asked Hazel to join his owsla. The Frith, the El-Ahrairah and the Hazel compose the Holy Lapine Trinity, separate and yet the same. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/27 "2019-09-13T15:31:14Z")
On the first page Adams tells us rabbits can only count up to four…so how the hell is his name ‘Fiver?’ This has bugged me since I first read my favorite book of all time. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/28 "2019-09-13T15:41:51Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > On the first page Adams tells us rabbits can only count up to four…so how the hell is his name ‘Fiver?’ This has bugged me since I first read my favorite book of all time. Five means “a lot” or “A thousand”. He was from a litter that had more than four kittens. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/29 "2019-09-13T15:52:47Z")
Which brings up the question, why didn’t the rabbits have base five mathematics? Fiver’s Mama could have named her kittens Fiver-one, Fiver-two, Fiver-three, etc. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/30 "2019-09-13T15:54:46Z")
Fiver’s name should have been “Four-one”. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/31 "2019-09-13T16:28:22Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I think the phrase “kill off” doesn’t really capture the moment. He lives a long( longer than normal it is implied ), happy life. Long enough to see his dreams and struggles come to fruition with a harmonious, prosperous warren. He dies peacefully in his sleep of old age and then is invited by his god to ascend to minor divinity as the rabbit equivalent of an angel. He’ll be the hero that following generations will tell tales about and mythologize such that he will eventually enter rabbit culture as an exemplar of rabbit leadership. > > Can’t really call that a downer ending. It is the opposite of that :). Great summary! _Watership Down_ is one of my favorite books of all time, even though I erroneously assumed that it was nautical story about a ship or submarine sinking when I picked it off of a list to read in 7th grade English class. (I had recently seen [Gray Lady Down](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077629/) in the theater.) When the book arrived, I was bemused to see a rabbit on the cover. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/32 "2019-09-13T16:41:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Which brings up the question, why didn’t the rabbits have base five mathematics? > Fiver’s Mama could have named her kittens Fiver-one, Fiver-two, Fiver-three, etc. Limited number systems tend to use repetition and correspondence rather than place-value to cope with higher numbers, because place-value (even with a small base) doesn’t really make sense unless you have a quantitative understanding of the difference between one high number and the next. [Example of such usage among the South American Yanomami whose number system is “one”, “two”, and “more than two”:](https://books.google.com/books?id=E54ExS7d350C&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=yanomami+number+system+one+two&source=bl&ots=ivUv06yT_t&sig=ACfU3U2T63HnUabypEAAgGXAXCEyxWGJFg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTvdvanc7kAhWFwFkKHQ25BrMQ6AEwD3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=yanomami%20number%20system%20one%20two&f=false) > [@](#): > > […] statements such as: “Many visitors arrived yesterday: there were two men, two more, one more; women, I could make out two and one more; there were as many children as women”—all this said with the tangible aid of the fingers. Such approximations suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/33 "2019-09-13T19:53:17Z")
**carnivorousplant** , towards the end, there’s a doe telling her young children Tales of El-Ahrairah, and Hazel is musing that he hasn’t heard those particular tales before… but the tales she’s telling are actually of Hazel’s own adventures. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/34 "2019-09-13T20:25:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **carnivorousplant** , towards the end, there’s a doe telling her young children Tales of El-Ahrairah, and Hazel is musing that he hasn’t heard those particular tales before… but the tales she’s telling are actually of Hazel’s own adventures. I don’t recall that. Novel or film? This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/35 "2019-09-13T20:33:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t recall that. Novel or film? I remember that from the end of the novel. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/36 "2019-09-13T20:38:51Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > On the first page Adams tells us rabbits can only count up to four…so how the hell is his name ‘Fiver?’ This has bugged me since I first read my favorite book of all time. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Five means “a lot” or “A thousand”. He was from a litter that had more than four kittens. IIRC, the Lapine word for “a lot” or “a thousand” – i.e. more than four – is “hrair” (used on occasion, in the rabbits’ otherwise-in-English conversation in the book). Fiver’s name in Lapine, is “Hrair-Roo” – “Little Hrair”, because of his having been an undersized member of a litter of more than four. I take it that Adams, for the purposes of his narrative, Englishes the character’s name to “Fiver” – “taking the liberty” of using the number five, actually unknown to rabbits – to make flow more smoothly, a tale in English in which the character’s name features very frequently. The majority of the male rabbits have “botanical” names, re which this does not pose a problem. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/37 "2019-09-13T22:44:03Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I remember that from the end of the novel. Thanks. I think I was at the “Oh hell, he is going to die” point by then. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/38 "2019-09-13T22:45:24Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > IIRC, the Lapine word for “a lot” or “a thousand” – i.e. more than four – is “hrair” (used on occasion, in the rabbits’ otherwise-in-English conversation in the book). Fiver’s name in Lapine, is “Hrair-Roo” – “Little Hrair”, because of his having been an undersized member of a litter of more than four. I take it that Adams, for the purposes of his narrative, Englishes the character’s name to “Fiver” – “taking the liberty” of using the number five, actually unknown to rabbits – to make flow more smoothly, a tale in English in which the character’s name features very frequently. The majority of the male rabbits have “botanical” names, re which this does not pose a problem. Thanks, Sangahyando. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/39 "2019-09-16T20:47:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Hazel went to Rabbit Heaven. > Crap. _My heart has joined the Thousand, for my friend stopped running today._ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084/40 "2019-09-17T01:50:09Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > _My heart has joined the Thousand, for my friend stopped running today._ What is that from? I don’t recall it from Watership Down or Tales From. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watership-down-spoiler/840084.md?page=3)