# Way to go, pubbies: $10-12 million in state funds missing. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 3, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662 "2005-06-03T02:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sweetums](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Sweetums](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweetums)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/21 "2005-06-03T15:11:52Z")
> [@19ForMe](#): > > Why is the state of Ohio buying rare coins? > > If they have excess cash, a bank account would be more liquid, prudent and accountable. If it is for some sort of pension investment, buying collectibles seems like it should be a violation. > > Is some hack indulging in his own hobby on the public dime? ``` Ohio dosn't have excess cash, indeed it is in rather bad financial shape. Yet Gov Taft's solution is to cut taxes, and reduce funding for such things as libraries (I work in one), police, and fire departments. So those coins are costing Ohio big time! ``` ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/22 "2005-06-03T15:17:03Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Forget the Democrats. This now SHOULD be a police matter. It is - or rather very shortly will be. And rightly so. This scandal has more legs on it than the Rockettes. > [@Agent Foxtrot](#): > > Apologies to UncleBeer for reusing his cite, but it was the best on the Net. You have no idea how amazing an accomplishment this is for the Toledo Blade - my local “newspaper.” > [@Agent Foxtrot](#): > > I seriously expected to find a New York Times article on this, but nothing. [Try here](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Coin-Investment.html?). > [@Agent Foxtrot](#): > > Tom Noe is under Federal criminal and civil charges for a $10-12 million misappopriation of Ohio state funds. Where did the funds allegedly go? You guessed it: campaign contributions to notables such as George W. Bush and Ohio governor Bob Taft. This is not correct. The monet appears to be gone, but it didn’t all go to campaign contributions. Tom Noe has donated since 1990 (well before the money went missing; the coin fund originated in 1998) only about $120,000 to Republican candidates. I suspect a large chunk of the $12 million went to purchase the $4 million home he’s now trying to sell in Coral Gables, Florida. But that is justr speculation. It’s possible the money has all been simply pissed away. It’s also possible that Noe reimbursed his friends for making contributions to Republican candidates as the Cleveland Plain Dealer seems to be asserting in a story today. > [@19ForMe](#): > > Why is the state of Ohio buying rare coins? **That** is the 55.3 million dollar question. Incredibly tho’, the answer is blatantly obivous. Tom Noe, the past chairman (His wife is the chairperson now) of the Republican Party in Lucas County, OH (Toledo), is a coin & collectible dealer. His position with the state in Columbus is pure patronage. That’s why the State of Ohio is buying collectible coins as “investements.” What’s more, there was a blurb on one of the local television news programs the other day that the Ohio Bureau of Workers’ Compensation (the state agency which purchased these missing coins) also has investments in race horses. I have yet to find a definitive cite in print for that claim, but here’s a story out of Columbus, OH which says that a newly proposed overhaul of the BWC’s investment strategies would disallow such dubious types of investments. [http://www.woonsocketcall.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14605652&BRD=1712&PAG=740&dept\_id=226958&rfi=6](http://www.woonsocketcall.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14605652&BRD=1712&PAG=740&dept_id=226958&rfi=6) I have a strong suspicion, given that Republican politicians all across the state are backing away from Noe - distancing themselves and letting him hang out to dry, that this scandal is gonna be huge and ugly. ---
**Author:** ![19ForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/439d5e/32.png) [@19ForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19ForMe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/23 "2005-06-03T15:36:40Z")
**UncleBeer** - Thanks for the link. Can’t believe: > [@](#): > > The bureau would be banned from investing in rare coins, horses, gems, stamps, antiques and other collectibles under a proposal Senate Republicans plan to include in the state budget bill. > > Taft said he supports the proposal. > > It would add two investment experts to the bureau’s Oversight Commission, require the commission to annually approve investment policies, require the internal auditor to report directly to the commission on investment matters, mandate commission members and senior staff to file financial disclosure statements, and allow the attorney general to bring legal action against commissioners who breach their fiduciary duties. So, there are currently no rules requiring the state workers comp fund to have internal controls, independent audits, competent oversite etc. They could have purchased Star Wars actions figures and a large collection of Bazooka Joe wrappers. Unbelievable. Whithout the basics of internal controls and accountability, its hard to see how the multi-billion dollar fund won’t have massive graft. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/24 "2005-06-03T16:00:04Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > What’s more, there was a blurb on one of the local television news programs the other day that the Ohio Bureau of Workers’ Compensation (the state agency which purchased these missing coins) also has investments in race horses. I have yet to find a definitive cite in print for that claim, but here’s a story out of Columbus, OH which says that a newly proposed overhaul of the BWC’s investment strategies would disallow such dubious types of investments. I heard about this the other day and was astonished that someone would invest in rare coins. Knowing that the person in charge is a rare coin dealer clears up a whole lot of confusion. But if this yutz invested in race horses, an investment that can be shot if a leg is broken, well, that is even more ridiculous. And this: > [@](#): > > Noe’s attorney stunned BWC authorities on Wednesday when he told them Noe bought artwork and other collectibles as part of the Capital Coin Funds. . .Bureau spokesman Jeremy Jackson said state officials have yet to confirm whether that memorabilia is actually owned by the bureau. seems to be icing on the cake. I mean, if these things were purchased as part of the fund, why in hell **wouldn’t** they be owned by the bureau? I see a long history of ignominy for Noe. > [@](#): > > The bureau would be banned from investing in rare coins, horses, gems, stamps, antiques and other collectibles under a proposal Senate Republicans plan to include in the state budget bill. Yeah, especially horses. But wouldn’t some of the other things listed be perfectly acceptable investments? Y’know, so long as someone doesn’t disappear with them? Waste ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/25 "2005-06-03T16:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > But if this yutz invested in race horses, an investment that can be shot if a leg is broken, well, that is even more ridiculous. Well, that’s not clear to me yet - whether the story was asserting that it was \*Noe himself \* was “investing” in the horses on behalf of the BWC, or whether the horse investment was part of some BWC fund other than the Capital Coin fund Noe was (mis)managing. > [@](#): > > I heard about this the other day and was astonished that someone would invest in rare coins. Knowing that the person in charge is a rare coin dealer clears up a whole lot of confusion. Oh yeah. This whole this from the get-go seems to have been _designed_ by the Republicans to commit malfeasance. (I’d say _misfeasance_, but that would imply there’s something justifiable about such dubious investments; I don’t think there is anything justifiable about these investment strategies.) In new news, President Bush has now said that he will return the four grand (the legal limit) his campaign received in donations from from Tom & Bernadette Noe. The RNC has committed to do the same. Bush still has another $100,000+ which was raised by Noe for him, however. He ain’t saying he’s gonna return that money - yet. This is in keeping with what many of the Ohio Republicans have already said they’re gonna do; additionally, many of the state guys are saying they’re going to donate their Noe-tainted money to charity, rather than give it back to him . [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050603/NEWS24/50603001](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050603/NEWS24/50603001) Other aspects of this story are being investigated, too. The Toledo Blade has written numerous articles on the widening scandal in recent days. The RNC has committed to do the same. [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050603/NEWS24/506030377](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050603/NEWS24/506030377) [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050601/NEWS24/506010444](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050601/NEWS24/506010444) [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050601/NEWS24/506010370](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050601/NEWS24/506010370) [http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050601/NEWS24/506010479](http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050601/NEWS24/506010479) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/26 "2005-06-03T16:32:16Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > But wouldn’t some of the other things listed be perfectly acceptable investments? Y’know, so long as someone doesn’t disappear with them? They’re highly speculative. A money manager for a state fund should not be investing in them. In my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/27 "2005-06-03T16:35:36Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Yeah, especially horses. But wouldn’t some of the other things listed be perfectly acceptable investments? Y’know, so long as someone doesn’t disappear with them? > > Waste Quick answer–no. Investing in “hard goods” as an investment is speculative at best. While some collectibles can give a good return over time, a public fund should only invest in things that conserve their principle(generally), while increasing in value on a steady basis. The operative word in investing in collectibles is “risk factor.” Too much risk. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/28 "2005-06-03T16:39:28Z")
> [@](#): > > They’re highly speculative. A money manager for a state fund should not be investing in them. In my opinion. Right. I agree. These things we’re seeing here are one of the exact reasons the federal gov’t (or at least the SSA) is _explicitly prohibited_ from investing in things other than federally issued securities. (Although I’m not sure that loaning yourself money and spending the proceeds can be called an “investment.” It certainly doesn’t - to my way of thinking - create any kind of an asset. Whole other complaint tho’. This Noe scandal is a wholly Repubican scheme; Social Security is such a mess it required the complicity of both parties to screw it up that badly, so I’ll leave that morass alone here.) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/29 "2005-06-03T16:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The operative word in investing in collectibles is “risk factor.” Too much risk. They’re not exactly liquid either and should probably disqualified on this basis alone. Relative liquidity I believe should be a high priority for investments held by a government operation such as a State Worker’s Compensation insurance fund which has a lot of cash movement. ---
**Author:** ![19ForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/439d5e/32.png) [@19ForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19ForMe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/30 "2005-06-03T16:55:32Z")
If Ohio is only out $10 to 12 million on this $16 billion portfolio, they will be very lucky indeed. In many ways, that would be a miracle. They “invested” $50 million in the coins. The dealer tells them there is $13 million in “profits” that are “reinvested.” At this point, the fund carries $63 million on its books. If only $10 to $12 million is missing, there isn’t really much financial loss. In reality, any fiduciary pot of cash at that magnitude without substantial controls will turn into a feeding frenzy in short order. Very very lucky if this is the end of the scandal. The political conributions are peanuts. The linked papers are barely noticing the giant incontinent elephant in the room. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/31 "2005-06-03T17:06:02Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > They’re not exactly liquid either and should probably disqualified on this basis alone. Relative liquidity I believe should be a high priority for investments held by a government operation such as a State Worker’s Compensation insurance fund which has a lot of cash movement. I started to post the same thing, but then thought better of it. Coins and antiques are incredibly liquid! If the State’s total coin portfolio needed to be sold in 24 hours, I could arrange for that. And I mean that the State of Ohio could have the money in their bank account the same day. The problem is, that some of the coins would be bought for too small a percentage of what was paid for them. I personally know Tom Noe. He and I are in the same business. He just makes a little more than I do. 😃 Tom’s always been a high flyer, but my personal opinion is that he didn’t do any skimming on the coin money. He didn’t need to. I think when all is said and done, he may have more problems on the political contributions thing. Of course, you don’t do much time for that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/32 "2005-06-03T17:18:16Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Actually, Noe has NOT been indicted. The Grand Jury is currently taking testimony. Actually, Clinton was not impeached for a blow job. Not that you should correct every error you see or anything… ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/33 "2005-06-03T17:21:25Z")
> [@](#): > > The political conributions are peanuts. The linked papers are barely noticing the giant incontinent elephant in the room. I agree. I linked those stories to show the wide range of things for which Noe’s currently being investigated or likely to be in short order 1. Coingate proper 2. Illegal campaign donations 3. Obstruction of justice (one of those stories told of persons suspiciously removing items from his Vintage Collectibles shop in the early morning after refusing entry to state investigators - this shop is where many of the coins supposedly purchased by the state were being “stored”) 4. Ethics violations while a member of the state Board of Regents 5. Shady real estate dealings 6. A guy (Mark Chrans) hired by Noe to help him manage the BWC coin fund was a convicted felon - oddly enough the conviction was for laundering drug money through his (Chran’s) own coin shop. Chran’s apparently absconded with $850,000 of state money - which Noe wrote off as a “business loss” 7. Possession - and subsequent sale to the state - of stolen coins ---
**Author:** ![19ForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/439d5e/32.png) [@19ForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19ForMe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/34 "2005-06-03T17:38:04Z")
Just love this one: > [@](#): > > In the day or two prior to the stakeout, a record of unusual coin deals at the Evergreen. Colo., subsidiary, called Numismatic Professionals Limited, including the sale of a coin purchased with state money for $122,990 and sold for a penny, was being digested by investigators. In a $16 billion fund, $122,990 isn’t even a rounding error. This screams for a double plus colonoscopy style audit. They need to hire a good firm to do the mother of all audits then hire another to review the first. Men with shotguns should follow. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/35 "2005-06-03T17:44:31Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I started to post the same thing, but then thought better of it. Coins and antiques are incredibly liquid! I’ll bow to your superior expertise Sam. I’d figured that just grading such a substantial collection would be a serious impediment to liquidating them quickly. Thanks for the info. > [@](#): > > If the State’s total coin portfolio needed to be sold in 24 hours, I could arrange for that. . . . The problem is, that some of the coins would be bought for too small a percentage of what was paid for them. Heh. Like that $120,000+ coin that was subsequently sold for 1 cent out in Colorado? > [@](#): > > I personally know Tom Noe. He and I are in the same business. I remember you telling me that you were in numismatics and I suspected you might know Tom Noe. > [@](#): > > Tom’s always been a high flyer, but my personal opinion is that he didn’t do any skimming on the coin money. He didn’t need to. Maybe not (he did have that deal to split the profits of this fund with the state - 80% for them, 20% to himself); this Storeim guy out it Colorado could be responsible for the bulk of it. But somethin’ fishy is sure going on. And moving stuff outta the store in the middle of the night sure doesn’t look good. > [@19forme](#): > > They need to hire a good firm to do the mother of all audits then hire another to review the first. The State Auditor has already moved to take these steps. Plus a review of the internal practices of the Ohio BWC. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/36 "2005-06-03T17:57:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Actually, Clinton was not impeached for a blow job. Not that you should correct every error you see or anything… Hell, if I corrected every mistake I saw, I’d have a post count of… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/37 "2005-06-03T18:03:33Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I personally know Tom Noe. He and I are in the same business. He just makes a little more than I do. 😃 I hear Noe’s position is coming open. Maybe you should apply? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/38 "2005-06-03T18:05:10Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Hell, if I corrected every mistake I saw, I’d have a post count of… 🙂 But if you saw every mistake you corrected, what would that count be? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/39 "2005-06-03T18:18:21Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I started to post the same thing, but then thought better of it. Coins and antiques are incredibly liquid! If the State’s total coin portfolio needed to be sold in 24 hours, I could arrange for that. And I mean that the State of Ohio could have the money in their bank account the same day. And this is why I wondered about using them as an investment vehicle. I understand that they’re considered hard goods and perhaps more speculative than stocks, bonds &c. But with things like coins, especially, I would think that there wouldn’t be much trouble liquidating them pretty quickly. Gems, well, perhaps there would be more difficulty; artworks I wouldn’t count on. Horses, though, are right out. > [@UncleBeer](#): > > 1. Obstruction of justice (one of those stories told of persons suspiciously removing items from his Vintage Collectibles shop in the early morning after refusing entry to state investigators - this shop is where many of the coins supposedly purchased by the state were being “stored”) > 2. Possession - and subsequent sale to the state - of stolen coins I bow to your expertise and personal experience with Noe, **samclem** , but the above sounds like he probably _was_ screwing around with the coin money. Whether or not he **needed** to, well, I really don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662/40 "2005-06-03T18:52:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Actually, Clinton was not impeached for a blow job. Not that you should correct every error you see or anything… Nope- Clinton was impeached for _lying_ about a blow job, which nobody but Hillary had any business asking him about anyway. Which, basically, amounts to him getting impeached for a blow job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-pubbies-10-12-million-in-state-funds-missing/306662.md?page=3)