# Way to go, UAW! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2008, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855 "2008-12-12T09:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/181 "2008-12-15T20:31:38Z")
[Cutting Wages Won't Solve Big Three's Problems | Labor Notes](http://labornotes.org/node/1991) Here is a cite from the union side. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/182 "2008-12-15T20:53:10Z")
So, union workers are asked to voluntarily lower their own wages in line with the wages earned by workers at foreign-owned companies. What about executive compensation, for the poor wretches who slave away over spreadsheets and attend meetings? Last I checked, and it has been a while, the notion that a CEO deserved a thousand times the salary of the widget riveter was peculiarly American. Has that changed, are foreign companies emulating our wise investment in talent? ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/183 "2008-12-15T23:44:08Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] In the U.S. our total costs for an IT software developer is around $80. Here is the problem for the American worker - if I hire that person in India - its $25 and they have a Master’s degree. In China - its $8. [/QUOTE] I guess I’d expect this sort of logic from a project manager. The problem is that even with the billions of people in China and India as opposed to here on US soil, there are not large enough numbers to replace American software developers who can trn out quality work. Everyplace I have worked has ended up needing 3 or more indian guys (I don’t know how many chinese, we never offshored there) to equal the output of one American guy who knows how to actualy understand what the business people want. Once you’re paying 3 indian guys 25 an hour, you’re awfully close to that $80 you were just complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/184 "2008-12-16T00:59:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Only because it is true and I have given you cites. You just want to keep believing it is not true. More blue collar bigotry. I’ll repeat. From your cite > [@](#): > > The auto companies pay as much for hubcaps and fenders as they do in wages. So is there no labour costs in the manufacture of hubcaps and fenders? What about all the other parts that go into assembly. Tell me they aren’t union built as well? I can buy that the labour cost of assembly might be only 10% of a vehicle, but that simply ignores the cost of labour involved in manufacturing parts and the maintenance of plant and tooling which are even more significant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/185 "2008-12-16T01:37:00Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > The link you keep posting does say that GM and Japanese hourly wages are fairly similar. > > This line points out that what your opponents are saying is true. Total compensation is much more for UAW workers then workers at Japanese owned plants. The big three are providing it’s workers over $70 worth of compensation per labor hour. Honda and Toyota provide it’s workers with sub $50 worth of compensation. In fact if Ford took out the $16 it pays it’s retirees it would still be paying more for labor then the Japanese makers, meaning that it’s not just legacy costs crippling the big three. > > I can’t speak about everyone else’s intentions with regards to whether their opposition is just union busting. But for me it just makes good sense to make sure that as a condition of loaning 15 billion dollars the big three should bring their labor costs in line with their competitors. If the big 3 are not made competitive on all levels and not just labor costs we might as well make a big pile with that 15 billion and set it on fire. You may stop the 70 dollar crap immediately. You are wrapping legacy costs for retirees and claiming it is wages. It is not. It is bullshit and is completely dishonest. The wages of workers is the same as foreign worker in America. The profits are being sent back to their motherlands though. If you think it is no difference ,it just says a lot about you and nothing about your argument.But anyone stating UAW wages are 70 is using propaganda and knows no shame. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/186 "2008-12-16T03:43:09Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > So is there no labour costs in the manufacture of hubcaps and fenders? What about all the other parts that go into assembly. Tell me they aren’t union built as well? I can buy that the labour cost of assembly might be only 10% of a vehicle, but that simply ignores the cost of labour involved in manufacturing parts and the maintenance of plant and tooling which are even more significant. Although it’s not clear from that article, it could be that those parts are purchased from independent suppliers, as many other parts are. If this is the case, wage cuts at the big 3 will not affect these prices at all. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/187 "2008-12-16T04:31:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You may stop the 70 dollar crap immediately. You are wrapping legacy costs for retirees and claiming it is wages. It is not. It is bullshit and is completely dishonest. The wages of workers is the same as foreign worker in America. The profits are being sent back to their motherlands though. If you think it is no difference ,it just says a lot about you and nothing about your argument.But anyone stating UAW wages are 70 is using propaganda and knows no shame. Who gives a shit? The point is that the big three do have to pay this legacy salary. Call it what ever you want. They still have to pay it for pensions and medical insurance. Why is this hard for you to understand? It is killing them all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/188 "2008-12-16T05:14:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You may stop the 70 dollar crap immediately. You are wrapping legacy costs for retirees and claiming it is wages. It is not. It is bullshit and is completely dishonest. The wages of workers is the same as foreign worker in America. The profits are being sent back to their motherlands though. If you think it is no difference ,it just says a lot about you and nothing about your argument.But anyone stating UAW wages are 70 is using propaganda and knows no shame. Um… the other _workers_ aren’t foreign. They’re Americans, working for foreign companies. Believe it or not, Alabama and Tennessee were invited to rejoin the Union. > [@](#): > > It is killing them all. Mismanagement and producing shitty products are killing them. High total human resource costs\* are just poking them in the eye a bit. \*since nobody can seem to agree on whether what they’re paying retirees are “labor costs” or not, I say we call them “human resource costs”. You, sir, are a number. ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/189 "2008-12-17T05:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > You may stop the 70 dollar crap immediately. You are wrapping legacy costs for retirees and claiming it is wages. It is not. It is bullshit and is completely dishonest. The wages of workers is the same as foreign worker in America. The profits are being sent back to their motherlands though. If you think it is no difference ,it just says a lot about you and nothing about your argument.But anyone stating UAW wages are 70 is using propaganda and knows no shame. Elucidator this will be the fourth time that I post this. > [@](#): > > In fact if Ford took out the $16 it pays it’s retirees it would still be paying more for labor then the Japanese makers, meaning that it’s not just legacy costs crippling the big three. As I have become more informed on this issue I agree that the $70 figure is misleading. However from what I see the UAW workers still make more an hour then their counterparts. I don’t know what we can do to lessen the legacy cost for the big three that is ethical. Some people are gonna get hosed badly and I’m glad I don’t have to make that decision. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/190 "2008-12-17T15:51:52Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > Elucidator this will be the fourth time that I post this… That’s nice, dear. And how is that working out for you? Do keep me informed, won’t you? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/191 "2008-12-17T16:29:09Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > It’s all still irrelevant. They are paid what they are paid and the legacy costs are completely irrelevant when it comes to asking current workers to sacrifice. That is a wonderful accounting stratagery. Retirement and pensions are not accounted for during the employment years because they are not paid until later and they are not accounted for later because the guys are no longer working. So it is never a cost. Not now, not later. It is money which materializes magically out of thin air and which no one has to pay. No need to get it out of the people who buy cars. It is all in the magic of accounting! Add it, subtract it, input it, extract it, debit it, credit it, turn it around nine times and, presto!, we can pay retirement benefits out of nowhere. Isn’t accounting great? ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/192 "2008-12-17T16:32:27Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s nice, dear. And how is that working out for you? Do keep me informed, won’t you? OOP’s I apologize I confused your post with Gonzo’s. My point for him was simply that according to his own cite his claim that > [@](#): > > The wages of workers is the same as foreign worker in America. is completely false. I had posted that multiple times before and I don’t know why he refuses to recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/193 "2008-12-17T16:39:09Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > This claim would be more believable if not for the fact that the Big Three are the ones that need bailing out. Well we pay ours many times more. What more proof can there be? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/194 "2008-12-17T16:45:57Z")
I love it when someone shows bigotry by quoting the 73 dollar an hour figure. Since Honda is 48 $ all we have to do is cut the big 3 workers 25 bucks an hour. Of course they would be working for free or actually owe every week. But numbers are numbers . ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/195 "2008-12-17T16:57:17Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > OOP’s I apologize I confused your post with Gonzo’s. … Quite all right, Mom could never tell us apart either. Still liked him better. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/196 "2008-12-17T17:07:38Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > OOP’s I apologize I confused your post with Gonzo’s. My point for him was simply that according to his own cite his claim that > > is completely false. I had posted that multiple times before and I don’t know why he refuses to recognize it. Because you are wrong and I have given you cites that you ignore. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/197 "2008-12-17T17:18:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I love it when someone shows bigotry by quoting the 73 dollar an hour figure. Since Honda is 48 $ all we have to do is cut the big 3 workers 25 bucks an hour. Of course they would be working for free or actually owe every week. But numbers are numbers . You just don’t get it do you. How the hell do you expect GM to compete when their labour obligations cost them $25 per hour more than Toyota for every hour that a worker works ? Would you buy stocks in GM or lend them money ? Why should everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/198 "2008-12-17T17:44:21Z")
There are about 450,000 GM retirees. They do not get medical coverage from their government. They get it from the employee. That is the flaw in the system. But that cost is wrapped up into the wage price when people choose to be dishonest in the discussion. We could bookeep it some where else and deal with the fact that workers in the big 3 are on par with Toyota workers here. Since we have been here much longer our retirement pool is much,much bigger. It is a cost of doing business but it is not a wage. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/199 "2008-12-17T18:03:35Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > I guess I’d expect this sort of logic from a project manager. The problem is that even with the billions of people in China and India as opposed to here on US soil, there are not large enough numbers to replace American software developers who can trn out quality work. > > Everyplace I have worked has ended up needing 3 or more indian guys (I don’t know how many chinese, we never offshored there) to equal the output of one American guy who knows how to actualy understand what the business people want. Once you’re paying 3 indian guys 25 an hour, you’re awfully close to that $80 you were just complaining about. And sometimes that is true, and sometimes it isn’t. We’ve discovered hiring our own people in China we get quality work out of our Chinese developers. The Thai guys we pay around $12 an hour to are worth two of our U.S. guys - those guys ROCK. ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/200 "2008-12-17T18:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Because you are wrong and I have given you cites that you ignore. Quite the opposite. I’ve been using your cites to show you are wrong. This is the site that you gonzomax linked. > **[Client Challenge](https://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/121308dnbusautopay.3e09ca7.html)** This site says > [@](#): > > Using Ford Motor Co. as an example, its total labor cost per hour per active employee is $71. That reflects $29 in base pay, $26 in benefits such as vacations and health care and $16 for its retirees. > > AND > [@](#): > > Toyota, Honda and others employing American workers provide less-generous benefits for current workers and especially for retirees, putting their hourly costs under $50 an hour for labor compared with the Big Three. So if we take out the 16 dollar legacy costs Ford motor company pays 29 + 26 = 55 dollars an hour. According to your cite Toyota pays sub 50. I believe I read 47 somewhere else? So toyota’s labor cost is at least 5 to 8 dollars an hour lower. Math has never been my strong subject so if I’ve made some math errors go ahead and correct them for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=11)