# Way to go, UAW! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2008, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855 "2008-12-12T09:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/321 "2008-12-29T17:11:16Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > This was purchased 1) When the union had more money, 2) with the approval of the members as a resort-type place for the memebers, retirees and their families, and 3) as an investment for the union. > > I agree this needs to be sold because 1) The union’s membership is sliding and resources are tighter than they were previously, 2) the crappy location makes it difficult for people to fly or drive there, and 3) this is a money-losing investment. > > Still, this has absolutely nothing to do with the OP or this thread, other than another “Look how corrupt the union is!” message. Desperation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Big 3’s troubles, and the UAW’s role in that. Well, it has something to do with it, it’s a measure of proof that neither the companies or the union had the long view in mind. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/322 "2008-12-29T17:19:25Z")
So was it MORE wasteful to have Black Lake available as a training and educational venue? I wonder how much more the union would have spent to actually rent out hotels and conference centers for 40 years every time they had a training retreat. Black Lake itself isn’t losing money. The golf course, which was supposed to be an investment and help the place make a profit, is losing money. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/323 "2008-12-30T20:15:15Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So was it MORE wasteful to have Black Lake available as a training and educational venue? I wonder how much more the union would have spent to actually rent out hotels and conference centers for 40 years every time they had a training retreat. > > Black Lake itself isn’t losing money. The golf course, which was supposed to be an investment and help the place make a profit, is losing money. Actually, there was a quote in Malkin’s Blog citing the Detroit Free Press about both for-profit venues losing somewhere in the neighborhood of $23Million in the past 5 years. Hafta pay for the story though, so I can’t link it. Actually, it ALWAYS costs more money out-of-pocket to own as opposed to rent, you get the long term value increase as an individual investor by owning, provided there aren’t big swings in the market, but organizations that need to stay agile (read all of them) can’t plant roots too deep that pulling them up will cost more than staying. There’s a reason that big companies don’t own these kinds of places just as a “retreat” and like AIG, they blow their (our) money at an established resort, that reason is because it costs too much in the long term and you never end up saving what you think you will by owning. In this case it’s because you never treat the place like a business, instead, you’re beholden, as the union is, to the legacy of some long-lost president and his dream for the future that is already in the past and hardly in line with the needs of the day. I Even if the union HAD spent more money on hotels/conference centers, come the day they can’t afford to have the conferences/retreats, they can just simply not do it, as opposed to spending money they don’t have to manage something they shouldn’t have purchased for a reason that resonates only with the heart as opposed to the mind. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/324 "2008-12-30T21:34:50Z")
Werethey like the Teamsters? (alowing Mob members to “invest” retirement funds)? I suspect the UAW has a LOT of money-how is it invested, and how much is skimmed off by the union management?:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/325 "2008-12-30T22:12:30Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > :mad: Did Jesus really kill all the baby unicorns in the world?:mad: . . . Wow, it’s possible to get angry about ANYTHING this way!!! ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/326 "2008-12-31T14:26:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Werethey like the Teamsters? (alowing Mob members to “invest” retirement funds)? I suspect the UAW has a LOT of money-how is it invested, and how much is skimmed off by the union management?:mad: Careful with the tinfoil, has sharp edges, it does. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/327 "2008-12-31T16:13:14Z")
You guys are confusing the UAW with the Teamsters. The UAW is a Reuther organization which is not tied to the underworld. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/328 "2008-12-31T18:42:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You guys are confusing the UAW with the Teamsters. The UAW is a Reuther organization which is not tied to the underworld. Oh, I don’t know about that - [cite](http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU2/04_11_05.htm), [cite](http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-1/Union-Corruption-Watchdog-Criticizes-GM-UAW-Deal-on-Health-Care-3B-Says-Congress-Should-Hold-Hearings-on-Lousy-Deal-for-Retirees-2211-1/), [cite](http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=3950), [cite](http://labornotes.org/node/1302), etc. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/329 "2008-12-31T21:51:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oh, I don’t know about that - [cite](http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU2/04_11_05.htm), [cite](http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-1/Union-Corruption-Watchdog-Criticizes-GM-UAW-Deal-on-Health-Care-3B-Says-Congress-Should-Hold-Hearings-on-Lousy-Deal-for-Retirees-2211-1/), [cite](http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=3950), [cite](http://labornotes.org/node/1302), etc. > > Regards, > Shodan Huh. Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/330 "2008-12-31T23:28:46Z")
Accusations . Lets see how much is true. You cite a site called Organized Labor Accountability? I smell heavy bias. The Freep destroyed their unions years ago and never have a positively spun story on unions. The 911 impact site was heavily backed by union money and union people were in the trenches helping the workers. You could have dismissed the story if it was ever told. Not on TV ,not in the papers. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/331 "2009-01-01T14:51:59Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Accusations . Lets see how much is true. You cite a site called Organized Labor Accountability? I smell heavy bias. The Freep destroyed their unions years ago and never have a positively spun story on unions. The 911 impact site was heavily backed by union money and union people were in the trenches helping the workers. You could have dismissed the story if it was ever told. Not on TV ,not in the papers. It really is all sunshine and union planted flowers in your world isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/332 "2009-01-01T15:56:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You cite a site called Organized Labor Accountability? I smell heavy bias. Right, right - anyone who expects the unions to be accountable must be biased. You ever kick yourself in the forehead jerking your knee like that? > [@](#): > > The 911 impact site was heavily backed by union money and union people were in the trenches helping the workers. Thanks a lot for mentioning 9/11, Mayor Giuliani, but what the fuck does that have to do with UAW corruption? If you are claiming UAW officials were digging people out of the rubble at the Pentagon, let’s see you pony up a cite. If you are just being a mouth-breathing nincompoop, stick your tongue back the labor bosses’ asshole and keep quiet about topics you don’t understand. Which covers about 95% of the known universe. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/333 "2009-01-01T16:12:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Right, right - anyone who expects the unions to be accountable must be biased. You ever kick yourself in the forehead jerking your knee like that?Thanks a lot for mentioning 9/11, Mayor Giuliani, but what the fuck does that have to do with UAW corruption? > > If you are claiming UAW officials were digging people out of the rubble at the Pentagon, let’s see you pony up a cite. If you are just being a mouth-breathing nincompoop, stick your tongue back the labor bosses’ asshole and keep quiet about topics you don’t understand. > > Which covers about 95% of the known universe. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodan that was real nasty. Are you OK. You typically act like a jerk, but that reaction is uncalled for. You are a one sided bigot with no ability to see past your hatreds. You have no middle ground and that is sad. The name calling and insults are juvenile. Try and get close to the subject on occasion. (!! was a place where the union quickly organized and helped the responders. Can you follow that . Now stay with me. The press made no note of the work and help they provided. Do you understand. The connection of course is the unions can not get good press no matter what they do. They only get slammed . That feeds into people who are unable to see the other side. (sound like someone ).It is not that hard when your mind is open. Yours is not even ajar. Data you don’t like is misunderstood, twisted and then ignored. As always . regardless of the facts Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/334 "2009-01-01T17:00:44Z")
Oh, those evil, evil labor bosses! Perfidy incarnate! **Gonzo** , you have been seduced by labor boss propaganda. Th eight hour day, pensions, things like that…these were all gifts from the benign and loving hands of the men whom God, in His wisdom, decreed should be the custodians of the nation’s wealth. And they, good Christian men that they were, rushed to generously bestow these gifts to the working man, whose welfare was ever close to their hearts! If only organized labor had not befouled the atmosphere with needless strikes and struggles, all of this might have been done in a spirit of harmony and generosity! But no! Organized labor would have none of that in their headlong pursuit of socialism. How they slandered and abused the loving kindness of their social betters! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/335 "2009-01-01T17:08:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > (!! was a place where the union quickly organized and helped the responders. And this has what, exactly, to do with the UAW and the examples of corruption previously cited? Are you saying that the UAW should not be held accountable because some other unions did other stuff during 9/11? I know this is difficult for you, but … If you are claiming that the UAW covered itself in glory post-9/11, I am afraid that you know not the truth, as your mother knew not your father’s last name - > [@](#): > > …members were outraged at the publications put out by these candidates for UAW Local 600 Executive Board denouncing U.S. action in Afghanistan. No denunciation about the events that took place on September 11, 2001, just criticism of U.S. response. [Cite](http://www.counterpunch.org/lare1114.html). > [@](#): > > … state lawmakers (at the governor’s urging) … just passed a law to expand 9/11 workers’ eligibility for “presumptive accidental disability retirement benefits.” > > This status lets city or state workers who qualify file for benefits without having to meet the same burden of proof as others seeking benefits. But the new law expands the privilege to 911 dispatchers and those who worked in distant emergency-vehicle garages. > > You can’t be exposed to dust over the phone, but if you took a call about the attacks and later suffered posttraumatic stress, your early retirement is covered by the taxpayers. Even if you didn’t take a call on 9/11. > > Who came up with this outrage? Lawmakers relied on the “expertise” of the September 11th Worker Protection Task Force. The 19-member group is dominated by labor representatives from AFSCME, AFL-CIO, police and fire unions - and by politicians seeking to curry favor with those who don’t understand science. [Cite.](http://www.nypost.com/seven/06262008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/exploiting_9_11_117188.htm) How about where the unions wanted to be paid extra for working on Sept. 11? ([cite](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x14389)) Now I realize that if your brain were dynamite, the resultant explosion wouldn’t even clear your nose, but do try to keep up, mkay? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/336 "2009-01-01T19:19:23Z")
Let me help you. The point was that the unions quickly showed up and helped feed and take care of the responders. Yet the news,paper or TV, did not cover it. Give it some thought before you respond with childish insults and name calling. I guess your immaturity makes that impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/337 "2009-01-01T22:06:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Let me help you. The point was that the unions quickly showed up and helped feed and take care of the responders. Yet the news,paper or TV, did not cover it. Give it some thought before you respond with childish insults and name calling. I guess your immaturity makes that impossible. Then to repeat, what the fuck does that have to do with anything? Do you just randomly type whatever comes into your head, or are you sincerely convinced you have a point? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/338 "2009-01-02T01:43:51Z")
Let me explain since you are so new to the thread. I explained earlier that a lot of people hate unions and do not even know why. I suggest it is because they are being endlessly barraged with negative news about them. They are not presented any positively spun news. Now with that for ground work, let me hold your hand and go all the way to the next step. The response about the 911 responders fits perfectly. I know it is hard for you but lets go on. The lack of positive union stories t during the 911 work is exactly on point. They were doing good work and the news ignored it. Can you see it now? Are you just too young and childish to go all the way to following 2 steps. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/339 "2009-01-02T13:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The response about the 911 responders fits perfectly. No it doesn’t, you clown - you were talking about how the UAW has no history of corruption. Then I cited some examples of how they do, and you started drooling some moronic blather about 9/11. What the fuck does that have to do with the UAW? You really are pretty stupid, aren’t you? I call people stupid in the Pit a lot, but it is usually half-joking. But with you… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/340 "2009-01-02T16:31:22Z")
Actually your examples are as slanted as your twisted viewpoint. I would correct you but it does not work on people like you. You are blind,bigoted and unable to show a dram of class in any argument. You are not worth my time. There is nothing that can change your obdurate,inexperienced,small minded views. You are far too small to be worth the effort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=18)