# Way to go, UAW! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2008, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855 "2008-12-12T09:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/81 "2008-12-13T01:57:06Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > That’s the kind of guy that will represent the UAW right to the unemployment line. As it is he’s going to have to face reality eventually. Now would be a good time, before Chrysler dies. Not just the UAW. I’ve got a parts plant right across the street from where I work and they’re starting to get _real_ nervous which in turn is making me _real_ nervous. If that factory goes under, my ass is likely going with it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/82 "2008-12-13T02:12:28Z")
And its all so _unseemly_, isn’t it? This sort of _lumpenprole_ greed, so naked and graceless. True greed requires breeding and education if it is not to offend genteel sensibilities, the smooth civility of a velociraptor with an MBA. The Free Market, in Its wisdom, rewards such as these, for reasons that we need not know, they are mysteries, we should not inquire too deeply, it will be noticed and go on our Permanent Record. But \*cultured \*greed, _respectable_ greed, applauded and admired by all, is only proper for those who have shown themselves worthy. Really, how many tool-and- die makers have even the slightest idea how to properly tip the concierge? They utterly lack that certain something, that…oh, I don’t know…_je ne sais quois?_ (Down home in Waco, we call that being “uppity”. Well, we used to…) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/83 "2008-12-13T02:19:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The way the Republicans are using this crisis as an excuse for union busting is disgusting. I almost wish the White House wouldn’t fund this from TARP (almost). It would spell the absolute demise of the Republican party. Even Dick Cheney sent a memo today telling relevant parties that if this bailout doesn’t happen, the R party will forever more be known as “the party of Hoover”. Putting 3 million workers out of a job would be an economic catastrophe for our country, but apparently digging in their idealogic heels is more important to these miserable fucks than the welfare of the nation. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/84 "2008-12-13T02:23:21Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > It is for unskilled labor. Then do it. Many factory workers have to go through a long training process. Automation has removed most of the repetitive jobs. Working in a factory is a noisy and dirty job. But many of the jobs are skilled labor. Machinists ,assemblers and jobs like that. The people on the line do not make 28 bucks an hour. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/85 "2008-12-13T02:34:04Z")
Does anyone want to take a whack at explaining how the Big 3 are going to make up for their 10-15% wage gap with the foreign automakers? ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/86 "2008-12-13T02:51:18Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > …So there’s no doubt a big problem with excess executive compensation, but when people say it’s impossible for someone to be worth hundreds of employee’s annual salary they are… wrong… I’ve got my doubts about it, but I’m certainly not going to dismiss it outright, and didn’t mean to imply as much. I was just saying I’d like to see some sort of quantification of merits going in, that could lead one to believe that some candidate is vastly superior to the next best. The system seems to be now-CEO says he’s worth $XX million a year, and his buddies vouch for him, and he in turn vouches for his buddies when they set their prices… The whole situation reminds me of the NFL Draft, of the can’t miss prospects that are utter busts. Except instead of scouts, the players rate each other. [QUOTE=treis] Alright, I guess it’s your turn to explain how the Big 3 can be competitive with labor costs 10-15% higher than foreign automakers. [/QUOTE] Hell, I’ll give it a whirl, using a plan I dreamt up as a transcendentally visionary 19 year old, way back in 2001. 2001-2003-Phase out SUV’s, luxury pickup’s, etc, focus R&D on hybrids. Sell/integrate unprofitable brands with an eye toward economy. 2004-2006-Pare back production to meet diminished demand, repurpose surplus labor force to R&D capacities, modernization of plants, etc. 2007-Current -Wait for oil prices to go over the tipping point. Upscale. Makes for a pretty lean 5-6 years to be sure, but now gas is at $4.00 a gallon, and I’m sitting on a fleet getting north of 40mpg, and selling as many units as I can build. My labor costs are still 7-10% above my competitors, but that’s cool, because they are 5-6 years behind me in R&D, are up to their goddamned asses in Luxo-yachts no one wants to buy anymore, and couldn’t retool to compete for years. I use the buffer to further reduce labor costs, continue innovating and ride the wave of customer loyalty to market dominance until the next paradigm shift. How’s that? And before you call shenanigans on my time travel solution, I call shenanigans on your allowing a team of jackasses to drive the bus to the precipice of the [Bolivian Coke Road](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_Road), jackknife it, then demanding someone else drive it down. \*I was never a transcendentally visionary 19 year old, but I did have two brain cells to rub together, and realized that it’s probably a bad idea to base one’s business model on the continued exploitation of a finite resource imported from a notoriously turbulent region whose people have no love lost for the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/87 "2008-12-13T03:06:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Fine, then let’s hear your plan to return the Big 3 to profitability with (a) 10-15% higher labor costs than foreign automakers and (b) a bloated product line. Universal single-payer healthcare. You get rid of the second-biggest cost the Big 3 have, a cost that their competition outside of the US _don’t have_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/88 "2008-12-13T03:13:30Z")
I don’t see how the UAW is obliged to do anything to please its critics. It offered concessions, but not enough for the Republicans. Fine. Come January the new Obama Administration can simply loan the money from the giant slush fund and the Republicans can come to grips that they are the party of Gee Wah Bush, Sarah Palin and Fred Phelps and bask in their hatreds, congratulating themselves on how pure they remain. Pure asshats. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/89 "2008-12-13T03:16:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Universal single-payer healthcare. You get rid of the second-biggest cost the Big 3 have, a cost that their competition outside of the US _don’t have_. That’s pretty much what the Big 3 have had for trouble for years, higher costs because Japan, Korea and Germany pay those bills. But the Republicans figure that they have another 60 days or so to destroy labor, and if by God they couldn’t do it in the last hundred years, they will do it in 2 months. Cuz they is deciderers. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/90 "2008-12-13T03:18:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Does anyone want to take a whack at explaining how the Big 3 are going to make up for their 10-15% wage gap with the foreign automakers? I will gladly pay 10-15% more for a superior product, or one that gets me greater satisfaction in other areas than strict sticker price (mileage, reliability, technology, attractiveness and styling, customizability, resale value). Funny, I don’t see the Big 3 offering that product. No amount of government subsidy or “American pride” decals will make their current product line attractive to me. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/91 "2008-12-13T03:19:22Z")
> [@Incensed](#): > > 2001-2003-Phase out SUV’s, luxury pickup’s, etc, focus R&D on hybrids. Fail. SUVs and pickups are the Big 3s most profitable area. > [@Incensed](#): > > 2004-2006-Pare back production to meet diminished demand, repurpose surplus labor force to R&D capacities, modernization of plants, etc. Fail. You can’t pare back production without idling workers, and you still have to pay them. You can’t really repurpose an assembler to an R&D guy. The assembler isn’t going to have the skills to start researching stuff. > [@Incensed](#): > > Makes for a pretty lean 5-6 years to be sure, but now gas is at $4.00 a gallon, and I’m sitting on a fleet getting north of 40mpg, and selling as many units as I can build. My labor costs are still 7-10% above my competitors, but that’s cool, because they are 5-6 years behind me in R&D, are up to their goddamned asses in Luxo-yachts no one wants to buy anymore, and couldn’t retool to compete for years. I use the buffer to further reduce labor costs, continue innovating and ride the wave of customer loyalty to market dominance until the next paradigm shift. > > How’s that? Big time fail. How is the Big 3 going to be 5-6 years ahead in R&D? Toyota, for example, has more money and fewer platforms to spread it around. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/92 "2008-12-13T03:21:06Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Universal single-payer healthcare. You get rid of the second-biggest cost the Big 3 have, a cost that their competition outside of the US _don’t have_. Fail. Most foreign automakers still get most of their labor for american cars in America. Reducing health care costs would take a big burden off of the Big 3, but the 10-15% I am talking about is just wages. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/93 "2008-12-13T03:21:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Universal single-payer healthcare. You get rid of the second-biggest cost the Big 3 have, a cost that their competition outside of the US _don’t have_. Of course the taxes to fund that four TRILLION dollar annual expenditure will come out of thin air, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/94 "2008-12-13T03:22:09Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > I will gladly pay 10-15% more for a superior product, or one that gets me greater satisfaction in other areas than strict sticker price (mileage, reliability, technology, attractiveness and styling, customizability, resale value). Funny, I don’t see the Big 3 offering that product. No amount of government subsidy or “American pride” decals will make their current product line attractive to me. Yeah, if the Big 3 were well ahead of the foreign automakers in other areas, they could probably swing the higher wages. Since they aren’t, they can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/95 "2008-12-13T03:31:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Does anyone want to take a whack at explaining how the Big 3 are going to make up for their 10-15% wage gap with the foreign automakers? You mean like fudging the numbers like the foriegn automakers do so that competition is always slanted favorably towards them? Maybe we could go back to Tarriffs on foriegn cars. We won’t lose too much since our cars aren’t selling overseas anyhow and it’ll help make those Mercedez and Lexus sedans the $500,000 cars their owners say they are. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/96 "2008-12-13T03:37:51Z")
There a lot of sarcasm and blame going around, much of it well-deserved. I tend to favor unions over management, but I think here we’ve come to the brink of the abyss, whether by incompetence, greed, or just brinkmanship. What does it make sense for the UAW to do now? Not what’s fair or right. That’s a separate question, and will never be truly answered. It would be nice if everyone suffered in proportion to the amount of blame they have for the problem. That’s probably not going to happen. I can understand how union workers might feel they’ve been manipulated into an untenable position, but the fact remains that it’s untenable. I’d like to see the debate shift from what is fair to what makes sense. Is there any hope that other cuts/plans/bailouts will really save the auto industry, or is it time for the UAW to sacrifice things that they have fought hard for over many years in order not to lose everything? (I personally don’t know the answer.) ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/97 "2008-12-13T03:38:42Z")
> [@treis](#): > > 54k a year is a lot of money. It’s twice the median income for high school graduates and towards the top 1/4 of median household income. Exactly. what planet do some of the UAW defenders on here think that a high school or less educated person deserves this type of salary. The UAW can bury their heads in the sand until they kill the auto industry or do something now. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/98 "2008-12-13T03:39:25Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Of course the taxes to fund that four TRILLION dollar annual expenditure will come out of thin air, right? :rolleyes: Funny how just about every other Western democracy manages to pay for it, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/99 "2008-12-13T03:56:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Fail. SUVs and pickups are the Big 3s most profitable area. > Fail. You can’t pare back production without idling workers, and you still have to pay them. You can’t really repurpose an assembler to an R&D guy. The assembler isn’t going to have the skills to start researching stuff. > Big time fail. How is the Big 3 going to be 5-6 years ahead in R&D? Toyota, for example, has more money and fewer platforms to spread it around. Is the only solution you see union busting? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/100 "2008-12-13T04:00:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Funny how just about every other Western democracy manages to pay for it, isn’t it? Straw man. The question stands: Who are you going to tax to get that money? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=6)