# Way to go, UAW! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2008, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855 "2008-12-12T09:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/121 "2008-12-13T14:02:23Z")
God why do Republicans have to be such fucking douche bags? I say if th big 3 do fold the massive wave of unemployed Michigan people should spend their new gotten free time getting revenge on repubicans traitors. Burn their offices. Slash their tires. Smash their windows. Leave road kill in their mailbox. Tell their kids how their parents or evil people who want workers to starve and they should be ashamed of them. Making their lives a living hell for being such human scum. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/122 "2008-12-13T14:15:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > God why do Republicans have to be such fucking douche bags? I say if th big 3 do fold the massive wave of unemployed Michigan people should spend their new gotten free time getting revenge on repubicans traitors. Burn their offices. Slash their tires. Smash their windows. Leave road kill in their mailbox. Tell their kids how their parents or evil people who want workers to starve and they should be ashamed of them. > > Making their lives a living hell for being such human scum. This is my favorite story of yesterday’s news: [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812120325](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812120325) Why is a sitting US Senator selling his autograph anyway? ETA: That link doesn’t actually finish the story: The trade center that was holding the baseball card show wouldn’t let Bunning come; they cancelled his appearance at the last minute. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/123 "2008-12-13T14:20:56Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > God why do Republicans have to be such fucking douche bags? I say if th big 3 do fold the massive wave of unemployed Michigan people should spend their new gotten free time getting revenge on repubicans traitors. Burn their offices. Slash their tires. Smash their windows. Leave road kill in their mailbox. Tell their kids how their parents or evil people who want workers to starve and they should be ashamed of them. > > Making their lives a living hell for being such human scum. You’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/124 "2008-12-13T14:39:55Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You’re insane. Well you tell me. Michigan already has a 10% unemployment rate. Now Republicans are playing union busting games with filibusters. The democratic majority of the senate wants to pass this. The big 3, and the AWU have made concessions for this to pass. We just gave wall street near a trillion dollars with no strings attached. Yet a minority of republicans wish to block this after supporting the trillion dollar wall street bail out. If the Auto jobs go away Michigan’s unemployment will sky rocket way more then it already has. These bastards are playing games with our future. They’re trying to make families starve just to bust a union. Again the Democratic majority of the senate wants to pass this. It’s only a few republicans with filibusters stopping this. The same assholes who fight a social safety net tooth and nail. They want us to starve in the streets as beggars apparently. The government needs to fear it’s people sometimes. Just as families here fear for the future. What do you propose we do here in Michigan to fix this? We fucking need help. We want to work. We’re a hardworking state. There is no work. I’m not insane just very frustrated. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/125 "2008-12-13T14:58:45Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > Exactly. what planet do some of the UAW defenders on here think that a high school or less educated person deserves this type of salary. The UAW can bury their heads in the sand until they kill the auto industry or do something now. Some of us who don’t have a college degree are apparently a hell of a lot smarter than you. I make far more than those UAW members, and am not in any way associated with a union. As far as whether I “deserve” it or not, my employer would tell you I’m a bargain at my price. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/126 "2008-12-13T15:53:06Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well you tell me. Michigan already has a 10% unemployment rate. Now Republicans are playing union busting games with filibusters. The democratic majority of the senate wants to pass this. The big 3, and the AWU have made concessions for this to pass. We just gave wall street near a trillion dollars with no strings attached. > Yet a minority of republicans wish to block this after supporting the trillion dollar wall street bail out. If the Auto jobs go away Michigan’s unemployment will sky rocket way more then it already has. > > These bastards are playing games with our future. They’re trying to make families starve just to bust a union. Again the Democratic majority of the senate wants to pass this. It’s only a few republicans with filibusters stopping this. The same assholes who fight a social safety net tooth and nail. They want us to starve in the streets as beggars apparently. The government needs to fear it’s people sometimes. Just as families here fear for the future. > What do you propose we do here in Michigan to fix this? We fucking need help. We want to work. We’re a hardworking state. There is no work. > > I’m not insane just very frustrated. This whole thing is mind-boggling, I know. GWB may actually, after 8 years of doing everything in his power to make me hate him, [earn a bit of my respect in the final 40 days of his administration.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/meltdown_autos) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/127 "2008-12-13T16:10:33Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > GWB may actually, after 8 years of doing everything in his power to make me hate him, [earn a bit of my respect in the final 40 days of his administration.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/meltdown_autos) Despite the best of intentions, I have faith that Bush’s plan, whatever it is, will end up flooding the [ninth ward](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Ward_of_New_Orleans) again. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/128 "2008-12-13T16:23:03Z")
> [@Kendall Jackson](#): > > On a scale from zero to dumb, instigating a tariff war ranks somewhere between shaving your pubic hair with a chainsaw and drinking paint thinner because you’re thirsty. There are, technically, dumber ideas that exist. But there aren’t that many. Instigate a land war! ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/129 "2008-12-13T16:53:33Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Instigate a land war! In Asia! Oh, wait, we’ve already done that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/130 "2008-12-13T17:35:52Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > This is my favorite story of yesterday’s news: [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812120325](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812120325) > > Why is a sitting US Senator selling his autograph anyway? > > ETA: That link doesn’t actually finish the story: The trade center that was holding the baseball card show wouldn’t let Bunning come; they cancelled his appearance at the last minute. 🙂 haha that’s awesome. Serves him right. I wish he had came though. I like the part about how ineffectual he is. Even Kentucky doesn’t want him these days. Shows what losers the Republicans have in congress these days. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/131 "2008-12-13T17:44:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Saying things like “Fail.” makes a person look like a douchenozzle, so I won’t. But you’ve failed to [win this arguement:](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/12/12/14b_auto_bailout_collapses_in_senate/) > > Tell me how they’re making so much more than the UAW workers. This doesn’t jive with what the NYTimes is claiming: > **[The New York Times \> Business \> Image \> Figuring Autoworkers’ Pay](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/12/10/business/20081210_LEONHARDT_GRAPHIC.html)** ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/132 "2008-12-13T17:46:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is the only solution you see union busting? Union busting, as you call it, is only part of the problem with the Big 3. Nevertheless, they have to fix it if they want to be competitive with the foreign makes. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/133 "2008-12-13T17:52:57Z")
> [@Incensed](#): > > Were. Were the most profitable areas. Care to place a wager on the profitability of SUV’s and Pickups between 2008-2028? Yeah, I’d say they will remain profitable for a while. > [@Incensed](#): > > This being the only valid point you make, and it a niggling one. Some workers get laid off in the affected plants, sure, but the majority are kept on producing transitional crossovers lines to ween the nation off it’s SUV binge, modernizing the facilities in which they work, making the lines more efficient, etc. And I’m not asking a lineworker to design a car; I’m asking them to critique the assembly process itself. I know it rankles the upper-crust, but blue collar guys can be amazingly good at diagnosing and correcting productivity sinks in jobs they’ve been working for 20 or 30 years. I never said they couldn’t, but it’s not like you need that many of them to work in R&D. Even if you have two assemblers per vehicle design, that’s still not more than a thousand workers, if that. > [@Incensed](#): > > The Big 3 is 5-6 years ahead because I just spent 5-6 years gearing my business model toward innovation (specifically fuel economy/hybrid technology), but you’d have known that if you had read for comprehension. Ok, but the foreign makers are also gearing their business toward innovation. Toyota isn’t going to sit there and let themselves get 5-6 years behind in any technology. Or, if you prefer it in your oh so edgy style- > [@Incensed](#): > > **treis** reading for comprehension= **fail** > > From 1967 to 2003,[the median income rose 29.9%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States), from $33,338 to $43,318. During the same period, the top 5% increased 73.8%, from $88,678 to $154,120. They effectively gained a middle-class and a half, and I’m going to need some sort of cogent justification for that disparity, as well as a refutation of this statement- The economy switched from a manufacturing to information based one. The people that adapted flourished, while those that didn’t got a bit left behind. I bet if you look at the growth in the gap between High school graduates and college graduates earnings between those two times, I suspect you will see a similar growth rate. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/134 "2008-12-13T23:24:01Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This doesn’t jive with what the NYTimes is claiming: > > [The New York Times \> Business \> Image \> Figuring Autoworkers’ Pay](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/12/10/business/20081210_LEONHARDT_GRAPHIC.html) Well the NYT doesn’t jive with what both [the UAW and Japanese automakers claim.](http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081213/AUTO01/812130355/1148) > [@](#): > > Executives at the Japanese manufacturers have been surprised to hear lawmakers assert that their workers earn far less than workers employed by Detroit’s automakers. One executive who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed UAW President Ron Gettelfinger’s remarks Friday that team members, or line workers, at Toyota’s largest North American assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., earned more than the average UAW worker. > > According to Gettelfinger, a UAW worker earns wages of just over $28 an hour, on average, compared with $30.45 an hour for Georgetown’s non-union workers. That includes profit-sharing bonuses that are likely to decline for the current year. > > Wages at Nissan Motor Co. and Honda sites average between $25 and $29 an hour and tend to rise faster than pay at UAW plants. Not to mention, your link only includes one of the Big 3. You might want to provide a link that includes GM (which actually employees more people) and Chrysler. The overall average of UAW workers’ hourly wages is indeed less than the workers at Toyota and Honda and Nissan. Also, UAW workers recently took a concession in their last negotiations which means that there’s now a two-tiered pay scale; new hires will be making CONSIDERABLY less than before. (About half) So demanding the UAW workers take a pay cut is simply nothing more than union busting, and does not apply to anything in the reality of saving the Big 3. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/135 "2008-12-14T00:42:24Z")
There are several things misleading about your quote (1) It doesn’t give an average wage for Nissan or Honda. It simply gives a range of wages that different sites pay. The average for the company could, theoretically, be $25 or $29 depending on whether there are more sites towards the 25 or 29 range. (2) For the Toyota site, it is comparing (I believe) Toyota line workers vs. UAW workers. Those are different functions. The UAW workers cover things like janitors and other functions that are lower paid or sourced to contractors at Toyota’s plants. (3) It doesn’t include all foreign companies either. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > Not to mention, your link only includes one of the Big 3. You might want to provide a link that includes GM (which actually employees more people) and Chrysler. The cite I give does apply only to Ford, but unless I am mistaken the UAW typically negotiates with one auto maker per contract cycle, and then that is essentially what they sign with the other automakers. If you think it is different, feel free to come up with your own cite. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > The overall average of UAW workers’ hourly wages is indeed less than the workers at Toyota and Honda and Nissan. I don’t believe that is true, but regardless, it’s simply putting money in different baskets. If you want to say that wages are equal, but the Big 3 pay 20% more, or whatever it comes out to, in benefits, the problem still remains. The labor costs of the Big 3 are higher than foreign makers, and that is a roadblock in competing. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > Also, UAW workers recently took a concession in their last negotiations which means that there’s now a two-tiered pay scale; new hires will be making CONSIDERABLY less than before. (About half) A step in the right direction, but the Big 3 need wage reductions now. They don’t have decades to wait for the overpaid workers to retire and be replaced. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > So demanding the UAW workers take a pay cut is simply nothing more than union busting, and does not apply to anything in the reality of saving the Big 3. Not at all. Bringing labor costs in line with their competitors is one of the many steps the Big 3 need in order to be competitive. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/136 "2008-12-14T00:59:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Not at all. Bringing labor costs in line with their competitors is one of the many steps the Big 3 need in order to be competitive. So how come the Republican’s have such a boner for this particular step, of many, that they’re willing to kill the companies if it’s not taken right **NOW**? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/137 "2008-12-14T02:01:07Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So how come the Republican’s have such a boner for this particular step, of many, that they’re willing to kill the companies if it’s not taken right **NOW**? They don’t have a boner. That hysteria is coming from union supporters. Here is what Mr. Coker said: > [@](#): > > Right now their capital structure in both places is too high. Cerberus and Chrysler can’t withstand its debt. GM cannot withstand its debt. Secondly, the labor cost is out of line. I know there’s a lot of talking about the U.A.W. Candidly, I will just admit, I think in some cases they get a bad rap. A lot of the people that are my friends won’t like me saying that. But in some cases they actually get a bad rap as to the way the comparisons go. The third issue is the dealership issue. I don’t think we can deal with that today. There’s two issues that we can deal with in this loan and solve the problem; okay? One is the capital structure. The other is the labor issue. That doesn’t sound like a rabid union hater. That sounds like someone that has correctly identified the problems with the Big 3, and has a reasonable plan to solve them. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/138 "2008-12-14T02:21:17Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Just out of curiosity, and because I’ve seen this point come up a few times here, how are the concessions that the republicans are asking for (iirc a deadline to reduce employee wages) going to “destroy labor?” **Second Stone** already addressed this, but I wanted to make the point simply: if you take away all the advantages of being in a union (higher wages, better benefits), then there’s no purpose for unions anymore. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/139 "2008-12-14T02:42:54Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > **Second Stone** already addressed this, but I wanted to make the point simply: if you take away all the advantages of being in a union (higher wages, better benefits), then there’s no purpose for unions anymore. I’m not trying to be a dick here, but so what? The point of the bailout is to save the Big 3, not ensure the continued existence of the UAW. The foreign automakers pay their employees a very good wage. The Big 3 workers have nothing to cry about if they end up making that much. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855/140 "2008-12-14T03:02:04Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m not trying to be a dick here, but so what? The point of the bailout is to save the Big 3, not ensure the continued existence of the UAW. The foreign automakers pay their employees a very good wage. The Big 3 workers have nothing to cry about if they end up making that much. I don’t think I implied any value judgment about unions one way or another – I was just answering **Harborwolf** ’s question. I do think it’s worth thinking about how much the foreign car companies would have paid their workers in their right-to-work factories in the absence of union-negotiated contracts up in Michigan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-uaw/476855.md?page=8)