# Way to go Wyoming Valley West (Pa.) School District! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315 "2019-07-19T18:42:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/41 "2019-07-21T21:02:27Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > For sure. My point is that I wouldn’t put it past a district to extend credit to students to spend to raise funds, and then go after the parents for the deficit. It’s totally unethical. Gotcha. Yep, that’d be pretty awful, and, one hopes, criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/42 "2019-07-21T21:12:36Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Let’s knock off all this judgmental hand-wringing about how bad the parents must be and just do the right thing here. I’d do the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/43 "2019-07-21T23:15:43Z")
The linked article and others mentioned that some schools in that district qualify for free lunch for all students. This has to do with the percentage of students whose family income falls below a certain threshold. The school in question did not qualify this year. It may be because some parents did not understand how to fill out the forms and they counted other federal aid as income. The articles weren’t really clear on how the lunch program worked, but I got the impression that any family could apply for and receive free lunches for their kids based on need — and once a certain percentage of kids at the school qualified, then everyone got free lunch. There was some insinuation that some of the parents ( I suspect it was the 4 parents with the $450+ debt) were refusing to pay as a form of protest against the policy. Apparently the school in question will get free lunches next year. Sending that letter was the wrong thing to do. It weaponized the department of social services. But I’m not convinced that these parents are people that genuinely couldn’t scrape up lunch money for their kids. It’s sound like they may have been mad because some upper-middle class kid on the wrong side of town gets free lunch, and their kids don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/44 "2019-07-21T23:31:42Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > There was some insinuation that some of the parents ( I suspect it was the 4 parents with the $450+ debt) were refusing to pay as a form of protest against the policy. I’m not exactly trusting the nutrition department’s take on things at this point. I think there are three different issues here: 1. Is the policy on who should get free lunches, and how the bureaucracy re: those lunches works, appropriate? I don’t have enough information, but from what little I have they sound jacked. 2. Are some parents falling down on the job? I don’t have enough information, but sure, there’s always gonna be parents who flake on shit like this, and they shouldn’t do it. If they’re protesting in some way, they sure sound like assholes, the kind of assholes that collections agencies were invented for. 3. Was the letter appropriate? OH HELL NO. Incompetent bureaucracy, flakey parents–welcome to civilization, y’all. That’s just how things work. But threatening parents like this? I don’t know if it’s criminal, but I damn sure hope the DA is combing the lawbooks figuring how whether it’s indictable. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/45 "2019-07-22T00:27:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But threatening parents like this? I don’t know if it’s criminal, but I damn sure hope the DA is combing the lawbooks figuring how whether it’s indictable. It’s not - even if I hadn’t seen that a lawyer was involved in drafting the letter, I would have known one was. Because it’s an example of what I call “lying by telling the truth”. From the NYT story: > [@](#): > > “Your child has been sent to school every day without money and without a breakfast and/or lunch,” read the letter, which was signed by Joseph Muth, director of federal programs for the Wyoming Valley West School District. “This is a failure to provide your child with proper nutrition and you can be sent to Dependency Court for neglecting your child’s right to food. If you are taken to Dependency court, the result may be your child being removed from your home and placed in foster care.” Assuming that the children were sent to school with neither money nor food- every line is true. Sending the child with neither money nor food\* is _failing to provide proper nutrition, and parents_ can\* end up in dependency court for neglecting a child by not providing adequate food. And if the parents are taken to court the result _may_ be foster care. But the impression that the letter sought to give, that there was a good chance kids would end up in foster care if the parents didn’t pay is _not_ true. There is no chance they will end up in foster care just for an unpaid lunch bill. ``` And the district wouldn't be making those reports in good faith. Remember how I said the parents are failing to provide the kids with proper nutrition if they sent the kids to school with neither food nor money? You notice I didn't say anything about unpaid bills- because that doesn't matter. If district feels the parents are neglectful for providing neither meals nor money for the kids to buy lunch, then the district should set standards for when to report to CPS- whether the parents paid the bill or not. And if the district decides they weren't actually neglectful because the parents know the school wouldn't let the kid go hungry- then they aren't neglectful, even if the parents stiff the school on the bill. ``` Oh and about those parents with the $450 bills- I’m sure they are people who are not eligible doing this as a protest. Because in my experience, people who are eligible for free lunch, etc generally fill out the paperwork and don’t want to run up bills that will be sent to a collection agency ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/46 "2019-07-22T00:35:01Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It’s not - even if I hadn’t seen that a lawyer was involved in drafting the letter, I would have known one was. Because it’s an example of what I call “lying by telling the truth”. From the NYT story: You’re likely right–which means they should merely be dismissed, not charged. > [@](#): > > Oh and about those parents with the $450 bills- I’m sure they are people who are not eligible doing this as a protest. Because in my experience, people who are eligible for free lunch, etc generally fill out the paperwork and don’t want to run up bills that will be sent to a collection agency I am far less sure. The federal forms for free/reduced lunch are a little bonkers (e.g., you have to enter the income for everyone who lives in the house, including infants), and a parent who is, for example, illiterate, may have real trouble getting them filled out. I’ve had to keep after parents before to get them turned in, and this is tricky to do, because by law I’m not allowed to know who’s been approved by the program, or to keep records of who’s turned the form in. But I can see who’s getting bills sent home by the cafeteria, and I can follow up then. If a teacher isn’t following up, or if the parent is phobic about paperwork or something, I can easily imagine the form not getting filled out. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/47 "2019-07-22T00:53:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re likely right–which means they should merely be dismissed, not charged. > I am far less sure. The federal forms for free/reduced lunch are a little bonkers (e.g., you have to enter the income for everyone who lives in the house, including infants), and a parent who is, for example, illiterate, may have real trouble getting them filled out. I’ve had to keep after parents before to get them turned in, and this is tricky to do, because by law I’m not allowed to know who’s been approved by the program, or to keep records of who’s turned the form in. But I can see who’s getting bills sent home by the cafeteria, and I can follow up then. If a teacher isn’t following up, or if the parent is phobic about paperwork or something, I can easily imagine the form not getting filled out. You’re right- when I revised I left something out. Which was that people who are eligible but have trouble filling out the forms might find something to send with the kid for lunch (even if it’s not much), or tell the kid to skip lunch or basically do anything else but tell the kid to get lunch every day resulting in a $400 something bill. Because if you’re eligible for free lunch, you’re never going to be able to pay that bill- and even being sent to a collection agency will be disastrous. But your experience is more relevant than mine, so if you say it’s possible that those with the $450 bills might have been eligible, I’ll accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/48 "2019-07-22T11:50:08Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Which was that people who are eligible but have trouble filling out the forms might find something to send with the kid for lunch (even if it’s not much), or tell the kid to skip lunch or basically do anything else but tell the kid to get lunch every day resulting in a $400 something bill. Because if you’re eligible for free lunch, you’re never going to be able to pay that bill- and even being sent to a collection agency will be disastrous. I mean, slacking off and getting sent to collections isn’t a great idea, but if you’ve got more than 1,000 people living in poverty, it’s pretty plausible that 4 of them are making less than stellar financial decisions. There could easily be 4 people who are just despairing, who already have so many collections agencies coming after them that they don’t give a shit about another one. I’m not convinced that’s what’s going on–just think it’s plausible that this isn’t a protest. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/49 "2019-07-22T12:07:46Z")
According to one of the stories I read about this, Several schools on that area have such a high percentage of families below the poverty level that they qualify for a program that gives free lunches to everyone without without asking for income information. That’s the kind of area that this school district is in and yet they pull this stunt threatening poor kids’ families for what reason? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/50 "2019-07-22T12:12:53Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’m surprised there are this many posters who can’t tell the difference between filing a lawsuit to take kids from homes and sending a letter threatening to file a lawsuit to take kids from homes. > > Can y’all stop acting like anyone went to court? Or that there’s any actual intention to do so? > > It’s as if you don’t understand what an empty threat is. I’ve had some experience with the foster system where I live (New York City). Quite a bit, in fact. You apparently have no idea how easy it is to take the children of poor people away from them. Without a court hearing. Yes, a court hearing is necessary to terminate parental rights, but short of that? A caseworker’s word will do it. It’s not an empty threat. And it certainly wouldn’t have felt like an empty threat to those targeted by that threat. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/51 "2019-07-22T13:41:48Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I’ve had some experience with the foster system where I live (New York City). Quite a bit, in fact. > > You apparently have no idea how easy it is to take the children of poor people away from them. Without a court hearing. Yes, a court hearing is necessary to terminate parental rights, but short of that? A caseworker’s word will do it. > > It’s not an empty threat. And it certainly wouldn’t have felt like an empty threat to those targeted by that threat. You’re right that the threat wouldn’t have felt empty to those targeted- but although you are correct that caseworkers in NYC can remove children without a court hearing, it’s not true that there is no court involvement until a termination of parental rights. When children are removed without a court order, the child protective agency must file a petition in family court the next business day. I certainly won’t say it’s impossible for a NYC caseworker to remove a child over an unpaid lunch bill - but I have enough experience with the CPS system in NYC ( including working for it for eight years) to say it absolutely isn’t policy and a judge is no more going to remove a child because the parent has an unpaid lunch bill that he or she would remove the child because the parent owes the supermarket money for a bounced check. The only part of that threat that might not have been empty was that the school district may have actually planned to make reports to CPS about the unpaid lunch bills. Whether CPS would accept\* those reports for investigation is another story. - Yes, CPS must investigate reports of abuse or neglect - but typically, they only must accept and investigate reports that would constitute abuse or neglect if the allegations were true. So when a woman tries to report that her granddaughter’s mother puts the kid’s hair in braids rather that a more elaborate style ( true story) , CPS does not have to accept and investigate that report. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/52 "2019-07-22T22:41:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A lot of school districts around here have opened up the income-based free-lunch program to all students, regardless of need. Why did they do that? Because it turns out that it’s actually cheaper to do it that way. Most of the money going into the free-lunch program wasn’t actually going towards food; it was going towards bureaucracy to determine who was allowed to get food. Cut the bureaucracy, and you can feed _everyone_ for less than you were spending to feed a small fraction. > > Which doesn’t, of course, stop people from complaining about all that money “wasted” by giving it to everyone. In my area, many schools provide free\* breakfast and lunch to all students, because it’s one of the easiest ways to improve the schools’ test scores. It turns out children learn significantly better when they’ve eaten sufficient and nutritious food. \*Some schools ask parents to pay, but it’s like the list of supplies students are supposed to bring to school. There’s no penalty for not doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/53 "2019-07-23T18:05:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Todd Carmichael, chief executive and co-founder of Philadelphia-based La Colombe Coffee, said he offered to give Wyoming Valley West School District $22,000 to wipe out bills that generated the recent warning letter to parents. > [@](#): > > In a letter sent to papers in the Wilkes-Barre area on Monday, Carmichael said his offer was motivated in part because he received free meals as a child growing up near Spokane, Washington. > > “I know what it means to be hungry,” Carmichael wrote. “I know what it means to feel shame for not being able to afford food.” > [@](#): > > But school board President Joseph Mazur rejected the offer during a phone conversation Monday, Carmichael spokesman Aren Platt said Tuesday. Mazur argued that money is owed by parents who can afford to pay, Platt said. > [@](#): > > “The position of Mr. Carmichael is, irrespective of affluence, irrespective of need, he just wants to wipe away this debt,” Platt said, noting the offer stands. > **[CEO: Schools reject offer to pay students' late lunch bills](https://apnews.com/article/d08cb7de39e849e08943def345d9a4ac)** > > The president of a Pennsylvania school board whose district had warned parents behind on lunch bills that their children could end up in foster care has rejected a CEO's offer to cover the cost, the businessman said Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/54 "2019-07-24T16:39:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s also possible that the powers that be encourage children to ring up ala carte items like extra cookies and ice cream on their account and then the parents are responsible. And while it’s certainly on the parents to set boundaries for the kid’s spending, I know the automatic system my son’s school uses doesn’t let me see an itemized list of his charges–so I don’t know really know where the money is going. I didn’t know he COULD buy ala carte items until he mentioned casually one day he’d had an extra cookie. We certainly didn’t have that option in Kinder. My kids could purchase extras on their lunch accounts (which I had to pre-fund). I think that if their money ran out, they would not have been able to get lunch; there may have been a “your parents forgot to pay” peanut butter sandwich or something on offer. I’d calculate out x months of lunch at y bucks a day, and send in a check for x\*y dollars. When my son said he was running low, just a month or so into a 2-month prepay period, I questioned him, and he admitted he’d been getting goodies as well as lunch. After that, when I paid, I put a notation on the check saying “lunches only”, so he couldn’t do that any more. So, there’s no way he could have gotten 450 bucks into hock to the school district. The message from that school district is absurd on sooooo many levels. - 1,000 families, 20,000 in arrears: that’s 20 bucks a family. - 4 of those families owe 450 apiece. 4 x 450 - 1800. So that means the other 996 families owe a total of 200 dollars between them. - You contact a family by phone LONG before the arrears get over a hundred dollars. And you help them apply for free lunch if needed. - No judge in the world would take kids away from a family for such an insane reason. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/55 "2019-07-24T17:32:56Z")
> [@mama zappa](#): > > my kids could purchase extras on their lunch accounts (which i had to pre-fund). I think that if their money ran out, they would not have been able to get lunch; there may have been a “your parents forgot to pay” peanut butter sandwich or something on offer. > > I’d calculate out x months of lunch at y bucks a day, and send in a check for x\*y dollars. When my son said he was running low, just a month or so into a 2-month prepay period, i questioned him, and he admitted he’d been getting goodies as well as lunch. After that, when i paid, i put a notation on the check saying “lunches only”, so he couldn’t do that any more. > > So, there’s no way he could have gotten 450 bucks into hock to the school district. > > The message from that school district is absurd on sooooo many levels. > > - 1,000 families, 20,000 in arrears: That’s 20 bucks a family. > - 4 of those families owe 450 apiece. 4 x 450 - 1800. So that means the other 996 families owe a total of 200 dollars between them. > - you contact a family by phone long before the arrears get over a hundred dollars. And you help them apply for free lunch if needed. > - no judge in the world would take kids away from a family for such an insane reason. $20,000 - $1,800 = not $200 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/56 "2019-07-24T21:57:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > According to one of the stories I read about this, Several schools on that area have such a high percentage of families below the poverty level that they qualify for a program that gives free lunches to everyone without without asking for income information. That’s the kind of area that this school district is in and yet they pull this stunt threatening poor kids’ families for what reason? No, my understanding is that the school in question does not have a “free lunch for all” program, but a traditional free lunch for qualified families program. It is some of the families in the district that aren’t “poor enough” for the program, that feel like the school should have a “free for all” program, so they aren’t paying for their kids lunches, like all of the families in the neighboring districts with “free for all”. The families that were threatened, were not the poor, but those that weren’t poor enough. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/57 "2019-07-25T20:22:14Z")
[The WVW School Board has apologized](https://www.wvwsd.org/cms/lib/PA02209258/Centricity/ModuleInstance/285/Apology%20Letter.pdf) for the letter and will accept Mr. Carmichael’s donation as payment for all outstanding lunch debts. Way to go Wyoming Valley West (Pa.) School District! Todd Carmichael, you totally fucking rock! ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/58 "2019-07-25T20:56:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > $20,000 - $1,800 = not $200 Well duh. I was a math major, can’t ya tell!! So corrected math: 996 families owe a total of 18,200 between them. That’s less than 20 dollars per family. Now, there have been plenty of times where I’d have paid the authorities a LOT more than that if they’d remove my kids 😉 but beyond absurd to provoke this kind of mis-action from the school district. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315/59 "2019-08-24T09:27:43Z")
::bump:: Looks like its the policy in some S. [NJ](https://www.inquirer.com/news/new-jersey/school-lunch-tuna-fish-sandwich-new-jersey-fees-shaming-20190824.html) school districts, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-go-wyoming-valley-west-pa-school-district/837315.md?page=2)