# Way to start a holy war, Newsweek **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951 "2005-05-15T18:58:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/61 "2005-05-16T16:48:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They go on rampages and invade other countries instead. So the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are directly related to the removal of the Ten Commandments monument in Alabama? Damn. If I’d’ve known that, I’d’ve protested its removal, too. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/62 "2005-05-16T16:51:18Z")
Newsweek? Oh yeah, they were the ones who teamed up with CNN to give us the ‘US Troops used nerve gas in Vietnam story.’ Are they still in business? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/63 "2005-05-16T16:57:20Z")
To expand upon my thoughts above, here’s Kevin Drum’s take on it, from [Washington Monthly](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Anyway, let’s get some things straight: > • Newsweek’s source blew it. But it was a source they had used before and they had no reason not to trust him. > • Hundreds of items similar to Newsweek’s story have been published in the past year, all of them true. The torture at Abu Ghraib was far worse than this, and other reports of Koran desecration have been published in the past year as well. They inspired no riots, and there was no special reason for Newsweek to think their report would inspire any riots either. > • The Taliban stages a resurgence every spring, anti-Americanism has been on the rise for some time, and the rioters in Afghanistan are responsible for the riots in Afghanistan. The Newsweek story is clearly just a pretext, and another story would have done just as well given their obvious animosity toward America. > • Under any other circumstances, conservatives would heartily agree. The phony outrage over this is just a cynical excuse for the usual press bashing. Newsweek should buck up. > > **As near as I can tell, the Pentagon has demonstrated more genuine outrage over this incident than they did over months and months of disclosures of similar (and worse) actions at Abu Ghraib. It’s revolting.** ---
**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/64 "2005-05-16T16:58:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > My point is that if some extreme segments of the Christian right are so quick to take offense that they are willing to break laws and impede the rights of others when they have all the power and are not even being insulted, it’s not hard to imagine what they’d do if their power was actually taken away from them and they were humiliated, tortured and had their Bibles torn up in front of them. > > I take issue to the suggetsion that this reaction is a Muslim thing. It’s a human thing and a religious fanatic thing. The specific religion is irrelevant. You’re mixing situations. Whose power was taken away in Pakistan? In Afganistan? What percent of the rioters in those countries were tortured? (by the coaltion, not their own governments.) The average non-Taliban in Afganistan has more rights and power than he did a few years ago. And why is that an excuse for rioting and calls for war because AN interregator is REPORTED by an UNNAMED source to have flushed a Koran? What one individual does (even if an agent of the government) is reason for a holy war? You say, “Just imagine what the fundies would do!” There has been repression of (among other religions) christianity in (in past decades) communist countries and (currently) in Islamic states. Does anyone doubt that there have been desecration of Bibles in those countries? Did they have “their power taken away from them?” Of course. Truthfully, I HAVE heard cries for holy war by fundamentalists. But not many, just the crackpots. But no rioting, burning, shooting, maiming, or tearing asunder. Also, I doubt the story. You can’t flush a Koran. Too big. Unless they print micro-korans, and that’s what got flushed. Or they have kick-ass toilets there. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/65 "2005-05-16T17:17:36Z")
[Miami Herald; March 6, 2005](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/11062864.htm) > [@](#): > > Three Kuwaiti captives – Fawzi al Odah, 27, Fouad al Rabiah, 45, and Khalid al Mutairi, 29 – separately complained to their lawyer that military police threw their Korans into the toilet, according to the notes of Kristine Huskey, a Washington attorney. [Human Rights Watch report](http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/gitmo1004/index.htm) > [@](#): > > They also complained that when the Korans were provided, the guards “would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it." ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/66 "2005-05-16T17:17:41Z")
On a light, and sacreligious, note, I bet that [this baby](http://www.flushmate.com/SeeItWork/default.asp) could flush a holy book. Seriously, though: **Diogenes** , I’m generally on your side, but your argument is WAY off base here. In one case, we have a report of a religious violation on one side of the globe, which (assuming that there is, in fact, a causal relationship) results in rioting and death on the other side of the world. In the other case, we have what some view as a religious violation that was going to happen, and people went to that site and protested against it, in person, at that place, in order to stop it from happening, and no one was injured. How you can even remotely compare those two cases is beyond me. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > And this “It’s a believable story so it’s our fault” argument is horseshit. How so? The US made the decision to invade Iraq. That decision had, as an extremely predictable consequence, the ratcheting up of anti-American feeling in the middle east. The US also (unfortunately) did some horrible things in Abu Ghraib. Put all of those together and you have a situation where even unsubstantiated reports of Koran desecration (a) are far more believable than they would have been 4 years ago, and (b) are heard by an already angry and riot-prone populace. To propose an analogy, the warden of a previously-relatively-peacable prison institutes a harsh new dress code in which all the prisoners must wear hideously uncomfortable itchy shirts in sweltering heat, all the time. Then a guard accidentally leaves a prisoner unguarded and, angered by his uncomfortable shirt, he goes on a killing spree. Clearly, we must first and foremost blame the prisoner. He’s the one who killed the people. And the guard is also responsible. He’s the one who made the mistake. But the warden is ALSO responsible, because he’s the one who established the conditions which led to the fatal outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/67 "2005-05-16T17:46:16Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The fault does not lie with the recipients of this information; their reaction is the result of being programmed with extreme ideas and being fueled by an irresponsible news story. The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of those who became violent because of such information. Either I can treat those living in the middle east as human beings capable of being held to account for their actions or I can treat them as children in need of someone to civilize them. I will not do both however. Marc ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/68 "2005-05-16T18:05:52Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Newsweek? Oh yeah, they were the ones who teamed up with CNN to give us the ‘US Troops used nerve gas in Vietnam story.’ Are they still in business? The Pentagon and the White House? Aren’t they the ones who teamed up with Judith Miller and the _New York Times_ to give us the “Saddam got nukes and coming to get yo mamma!” story? They still in business? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/69 "2005-05-16T18:08:27Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > If the story run by Newsweek is, indeed, false, those involved in its publication should be arrested and tried for inciting riots. Any editor of any noteworthy magazine should know the potential consequences of publishing such a story. For the record, many riots turned lethal, particularly in Afghanistan. How will Newsweek compensate for those lost lives? How will Newsweek compensate for damaged property? Publishing this article was extremely reckless. The damage this has done to relations with and perceptions of the US are very serious and irrevocable. Retracting the article or apologizing will do nothing: people will accuse the US of pressuring Newsweek to retract the article. Well put. It seems to me that Newsweek was much more concerned with playing “gotcha” with the Bush Administration than the consequences of thier actions. Whether you think that the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan is the right move or not, the fact remains that we are there. Given that reality, Newsweek should have recognized that they were putting lives in danger by publishing what appears to be third hand information. But why would they worry about that? It makes the Bush administration look bad and will sell some magazines. Who cares if people die because of it? ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/70 "2005-05-16T18:19:59Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > How so? The US made the decision to invade Iraq. That decision had, as an extremely predictable consequence, the ratcheting up of anti-American feeling in the middle east. The US also (unfortunately) did some horrible things in Abu Ghraib. Put all of those together and you have a situation where even unsubstantiated reports of Koran desecration (a) are far more believable than they would have been 4 years ago, and (b) are heard by an already angry and riot-prone populace. Do you support the Iraq invasion? Would you have supported it had the US troops found WMDs there? By your logic, you would be wrong to answer no to the first and yes to the second as it was believable that they did in fact have WMDs, plus Bush was acting on reliable sources. Whether they in fact had them was inconsequential as it was simply believable that they did. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/71 "2005-05-16T18:35:07Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > …But why would they worry about that? It makes the Bush administration look bad and will sell some magazines. Who cares if people die because of it? Really? Welcome to the wonderful world of unintended consequences, in that case. Because Bushivik apologists will point to this every time bad news comes out, it nourishes thier fantasy that dat ol’ debbil Liberal Media is out to git 'em, and they can’t be believed cause they’re out to git 'em. That story that came out a couple weeks ago, about the Downing Street Memo? Did you hear about that? You know, the memo that underscored our certainty that we were misled into war? Did _Newsweek_ shriek that headline from the rooftops? Frankly, I don’t know 'cause I never read _Newsweek_, but I am confident in your unbiased even-handedness. Did they? Howzabout those revelations on _60 Minutes_ a couple weeks back, wherein it was alleged that interrogators at Gitmo were using sexual/religious humiliation to gain thier ends? Did they trumpet that to the skies? If not, it would seem that your assertion as to _Newsweek_ motives are just so much Bushwah. But let’s cut to the chase! Let’s demand an open investigation into all such allegations, sunshine is a marvelous disinfectant! Let’s throw open Gitmo to international scrutiny, since, after all, we have nothing to hide, right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/72 "2005-05-16T18:44:20Z")
Princess Leia: You stuck up, half-witted, scruffy looking nerf herder! Han Solo: Who’s scruffy looking? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/73 "2005-05-16T18:45:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > we have nothing to hide, right? Wanna buy a bridge? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/74 "2005-05-16T18:51:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They go on rampages and invade other countries instead. You almost had a decent argument going, but then you slipped into your I-hate-all-theists-and-right-wingers mode again. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/75 "2005-05-16T19:19:53Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > If the story run by Newsweek is, indeed, false, those involved in its publication should be arrested and tried for inciting riots. Fuck you. I’m sorry, but that’s insane. What you’re talking about would destroy the idea of free press. The clerics who whipped their parishioners into a frenzy (who happend to use this article as an excuse) incited the riot. Not Newsweek’s publishers half a world away. They MAY have gotten a story wrong. I’m not positive that we’ll ever know. Regardless, the guilt is misplaced. > [@](#): > > How will Newsweek compensate for those lost lives? How will Newsweek compensate for damaged property? Publishing this article was extremely reckless. The rioters, the Taliban, and the people who are using this article as a pretext for violence are responsible, not Newsweek. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/76 "2005-05-16T19:34:36Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Do you support the Iraq invasion? Would you have supported it had the US troops found WMDs there? By your logic, you would be wrong to answer no to the first and yes to the second as it was believable that they did in fact have WMDs, plus Bush was acting on reliable sources. Whether they in fact had them was inconsequential as it was simply believable that they did. We know North Korea has WMDs. What do you suggest we do about that? By your logic we should invade them… ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/77 "2005-05-16T19:34:46Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Do you support the Iraq invasion? Would you have supported it had the US troops found WMDs there? By your logic, you would be wrong to answer no to the first and yes to the second as it was believable that they did in fact have WMDs, plus Bush was acting on reliable sources. Whether they in fact had them was inconsequential as it was simply believable that they did. I don’t think we’re communicating clearly here. I don’t think it’s right for people to riot and kill people based on the destruction of a book. That means that the rioting is wrong if the book was actually destroyed, and also wrong if they riot based on mistaken information. Anyhow, to reiterate the more important point: regardless of whether the Iraq was was right or wrong, it is not at all surprising that it led to the current situation, in which, due to heightened tensions, riots and deaths like the current ones occur. The rioters and killers are still the ones directly responsibility, but those who made the decision to invade Iraq, creating the current situation, also hold some responsibility. Agree or disagree? (Note: saying that the invasion of Iraq led to the current situation, and the deaths therein, doesn’t necessarily mean the decision was wrong. The decision to invade at D-Day directly led to huge numbers of deaths, but that doesn’t make it wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/78 "2005-05-16T19:41:19Z")
As well, there is the pervasive scent of rodent in the air. Norwegian Brown Rat? A bit uncertain… _Newsweek_ did not invent this story out of whole cloth, it would appear. They were tipped by the ever popular “highly placed source”. Such a source would almost have to be a Bushivik official, I doubt very much that [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) is on the “cleared” list. This unamed official has recanted, and yanked the rug from underneath _Newseek_, and, by an extraordinary coincidence! given oodles and gobs of ammunition to Bushivik apologists. Wow, what luck! Gee willikers, kind of thing makes me just a bit suspicious. I sometimes think that Mr. Bush and Co have not been entirely candid with me. No, really. Sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/79 "2005-05-16T19:45:25Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > Desecration of the Qur’an is considered to be a crime against God and Islam, by Muslims. It is punishable by death, according to the Shari’ah. To those who understand Islam and Muslims, the protests are understandable. But when is it going to Muslims’ turn to start understanding things? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/80 "2005-05-16T20:06:12Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > If the army of a Hindu country invaded the U.S., and their soldiers said loudly in church, “Mary sucks Jesus’s dick,” I think many American followers of “the Prince of Peace” would get very upset, violently so, even. I think that if Hindus came all that distance to do this I’d laugh. Not out of disrespect–it’s just such a bizarre thing to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951.md?page=5)