# Way to start a holy war, Newsweek **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951 "2005-05-15T18:58:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/121 "2005-05-17T05:08:40Z")
---- What exactly do you feel I should read up on, that Bush and congress based their decision on the most reliable sources we had? Fair question. A great source of information is [www.globalsecurity.com](http://www.globalsecurity.com) . But let’s skip to the heart of the issue. The US invaded Iraq on March 19, 2003, following ultimatums sent to Saddam Hussein the previous Fall. Recent memos uncovered in Britain show, however, that Bush was intent on invasion as early as July 20, 2002. Furthermore, his decision was not grounded on fact-based analysis; rather analysis was molded to fit a pre-determined outcome: The memo is [here](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html). Nifty quote from “C”: “C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime’s record. **There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.** ” Emphasis added. There were experts in post-conflict operations. They were not consulted. There were those who tried to give honest appraisals. They were shunted aside. There were those who were candid about the war’s eventual cost. They were fired. [1] There were those who made their views known to the press. They were smeared: in one case personal attacks were judged insufficient: no, the Bush admin had to go after family members. [2] Nothing would stop the rush to war. [1] Lawrence Lindsey [2] See Plame Affair, The. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/122 "2005-05-17T05:13:48Z")
---- I am just having trouble registering my feelings of disgust and distrust in a way that doesn’t sound whiny or paranoid. Ok, but I’m wary of the sort of false balance practiced by the press: to wit, if one side is guilty of some sin, then of course the other side is as well. To be explicit, at the National level, the Republican party has shamed itself. I would argue, though, that this is not the case at the state and local level. It’s not that there are no decent Republicans; rather I maintain that the decent ones in Washington have been sidelined. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/123 "2005-05-17T05:14:19Z")
> [@zuma](#): > > The fact that newsweek is guilty of sloppy reporting is newsworthy, and slightly pittable. > > That said, they are in no way responsible for any deaths whatsoever. Radical religious fundamentalists who over-reacted to an extreme degree, however, are responsible for this. > > Newsweek has been a reputable publication for decades, and I am sure they will get to the bottom of this and improve their fact-checking, much like the New Republic, 60 Minutes, and the New York Times have done with their scandals. That is what should be focused on, not the blathering of screaming fundamentalists But isn’t this awfully like shouting “FIRE” in a crowded theatre? ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/124 "2005-05-17T05:18:23Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Why even print the article when it will only cause more anger towards our troops? Abu Ghraib type mistreatment is one thing, but assuming this story is true, it’s the equivelant of someone peeing on my Seven Samurai DVD. And this “It’s a believable story so it’s our fault” argument is horseshit. Agreed. I do not understand why anyone would even print such a story, even if it was true. What is there to gain by this? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/125 "2005-05-17T05:18:51Z")
Oops. A great source of info is [http://www.globalsecurity.org](http://www.globalsecurity.org) . [http://www.globalsecurity.com](http://www.globalsecurity.com) is… well, I have no comment. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/126 "2005-05-17T05:24:49Z")
---- I do not understand why anyone would even print such a story, even if it was true. What is there to gain by this? Fair question. Former Gitmo inmates have asserted that various sorts of abuse have occurred. This was one example. If their story is corroborated, it suggests that Defense Dept officials have used imprudent interrogation strategies. The extent to which the Feds are screwing up that particular segment of the WOT is of public concern. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/127 "2005-05-17T06:46:42Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Recent memos uncovered in Britain show, however, that Bush was intent on invasion as early as July 20, 2002. It should be added that this memo is just another brick in the wall. It just provides another piece of confirmation of what was clear to some from the start, and should be clear to everyone by now. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/128 "2005-05-17T07:35:56Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Agreed. I do not understand why anyone would even print such a story, even if it was true. What is there to gain by this? I was unaware a story had to be good for America in order to be newsworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/129 "2005-05-17T09:12:47Z")
Lemme get this straight. 1-Newsweek fucks up on a story by relying on a single anonymous government official. 2-A bunch of idiots\* riot in several countries, leading to a few dozen deaths. 3-Newsweek retracts article, hopefully realizing that just because relying on anonymous gov’t officials for stories is status quo, it is incredibly stupid. 4-Bush administration demands Newsweek launch world-wide apology campaign to explain retraction, U.S. separation of press and gov’t, etc… Sound right? Okay then. Here’s my question. Where’s the apology from the Bush administration for launching a war that’s killed tens of thousands of people based on information so obviously shoddy that anyone who saw Colin Powell’s presentation to the U.N. knew it was fake? Fuck. [sub]\*idiot referring to people who riot based on one story in a newsmagazine most of them have probably never read, not to anyone practicing any particular religion[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/130 "2005-05-17T10:19:49Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Lemme get this straight. > 1-Newsweek fucks up on a story by relying on a single anonymous government official. > 2-A bunch of idiots\* riot in several countries, leading to a few dozen deaths. > 3-Newsweek retracts article, hopefully realizing that just because relying on anonymous gov’t officials for stories is status quo, it is incredibly stupid. > 4-Bush administration demands Newsweek launch world-wide apology campaign to explain retraction, U.S. separation of press and gov’t, etc… > > Sound right? Okay then. Here’s my question. > > Where’s the apology from the Bush administration for launching a war that’s killed tens of thousands of people based on information so obviously shoddy that anyone who saw Colin Powell’s presentation to the U.N. knew it was fake? > > Fuck. > > [sub]\*idiot referring to people who riot based on one story in a newsmagazine most of them have probably never read, not to anyone practicing any particular religion[/sub] > **[New rule: shut the fuck up about Bush](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=316833)** > > In this thread, rjung decided to ignore the premise of the thread to instead get in a cheap shot against Bush. As much as I agree with rjung, it’s fucking annoying and boring. To avoid hijacking that thread I will respond to rjung here instead. ... ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/131 "2005-05-17T11:12:12Z")
**Muad’Dib** , since this thread has a fair amount to do with the current administration, Bush being brought into this thread is inevitable. Don’t be stupid. As for why this story was published, there isn’t really a test for “newsworthiness.” This was a news story so they ran it. They checked with military officials who did not deny it. And back on page 2, **Squink** [posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6163473&postcount=65) links that show the whole thing is old news. I just wish Newsweek had more backbone. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/132 "2005-05-17T11:28:43Z")
This story is really just two far right movements firing up their outrage-craving footsoldiers over the same incident. “They desecrated the Koran. We must riot!” “The liberal media is attacking Bush! We must drool over our keyboards in outrage (and try to shift some blame for this shitstorm away from our beloved leader)!” ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/133 "2005-05-17T11:33:47Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > This story is really just two far right movements firing up their outrage-craving footsoldiers over the same incident. > > “They desecrated the Koran. We must riot!” > > “The liberal media is attacking Bush! We must drool over our keyboards in outrage (and try to shift some blame for this shitstorm away from our beloved leader)!” Fine, let’s throw 'em on an island and let them fight it out. Let ignorance fight ignorance for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/134 "2005-05-17T11:37:16Z")
Well, I take back what I just wrote. Apparently this is only one extreme right group firing up the outrage machine for some pseudo-indignation. From Talking Points Memo, a snippet from the New York Times, noting that previously, the administration was saying that the protests were NOT related to the magazine. > [@JOSH MARSHALL](#): > > GOOD CATCH IN Kit Seelye’s piece in Tuesday’s Times … > Mr. McClellan and other administration officials blamed the Newsweek article for setting off the anti-American violence that swept Afghanistan and Pakistan. “The report had real consequences,” Mr. McClellan said. “People have lost their lives. Our image abroad has been damaged.” > But only a few days earlier, in a briefing on Thursday, Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had said that the senior commander in Afghanistan believed the protests had stemmed from that country’s reconciliation process. > “He thought it was not at all tied to the article in the magazine,” General Myers said. My only question: Is this Rove finding his stride and the righties falling in unthinking lockstep again, or will this be responded to more appropriately by the media this time? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/135 "2005-05-17T11:53:27Z")
Here’s [Keith Olbermann’s](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7873141/#050516b) take on the Joint Chief’s statement versus the effort to whip up outrage among the right wingers as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/136 "2005-05-17T14:00:30Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I like the point about the fact that most of the **Afhans** are illiterate. > > \ > > This is what we’re dealing with-a mass of **ignorat** people who think their holy book is being desecrated. Bolding mine. So much irony…so little time. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/137 "2005-05-17T14:01:44Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Damn they have some powerful toilets in Gitmo… LOL. Seriously, though, I suspect that most of the rioters have as much familiarity with flush toilets as they do with nuclear reactors. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/138 "2005-05-17T14:11:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Whether it’s a major irony or a major explanation I’ll leave to be debated, but what struck me is this: 15 people were killed over the reports of the desecration of a book in a country with one of the highest illiteracy rates in the world (64%- half of the nation’s men and three-quarters of its women would have been unable to identify what was desecrated had the story been true). Well, if the illiteracy rate is that high, there probably aren’t many books around. And when you only know (of, as in having it read to you) one book, it means a lot more to you. > [@](#): > > IOKIYAAR. What the heck does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/139 "2005-05-17T14:18:15Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > What the heck does that mean? IOKIYAAR = It’s OK If You Are A Republican. The rules only apply one way, and the pubbies don’t even pretend that’s not the case anymore. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951/140 "2005-05-17T14:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] -Ok, but I’m wary of the sort of false balance practiced by the press: to wit, if one side is guilty of some sin, then of course the other side is as well.QUOTE] There is no balance at all. It’s all artificial and fake. It’s an insult to intelligent people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/way-to-start-a-holy-war-newsweek/303951.md?page=8)