# Ways Around Jewish Sabbath Restrictions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267 "2019-07-18T18:37:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/101 "2019-07-22T21:46:22Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I think this [elevator design](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster) is the ideal solution for this problem. It has the added advantage of being called a paternoster (I hope I am not the only one who thinks that is funny in this context). And the do exist and are still funktioning! Apart from the examples quoted in the article just in Berlin there is one in the Baubehörde in the Bayrischer Platz and one or maybe several in the Auswärtiges Amt. They are called paternosters because the cabins lined up and slowly moving remind of praying the rosary with the help of beads on a string. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/102 "2019-07-22T21:57:17Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I think this [elevator design](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster) is the ideal solution for this problem. It has the added advantage of being called a paternoster (I hope I am not the only one who thinks that is funny in this context). It sounds like paternosters might have been rare (if not entirely non-existant) in the U.S.; I’d certainly never heard of or seen one here. On the other hand, we do have the similar-but-even-scarier device here called a [manlift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_manlift), though they’re rarely (if ever) used in places where they’d be used by the general public (I think they’re only used in industrial applications). A manlift is basically the same idea as a paternoster, except that there aren’t elevator cars – there are just handholds and footrests, and to use one, you essentially step out over an open hole in the floor to grab onto it. I rode on one, a few times, when I worked for Quaker Oats in the late 1990s; our big grain milling plant in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, was six or so stories tall, and had several manlifts. When we office-dwelling marketing people from Chicago would visit the plant, the manufacturing team enjoyed hazing us by making us ride on the manlift. I don’t like heights, but I managed to ride on the thing without falling off. 😛 Edit: Here’s a video on Youtube showing how they work: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUdL\_st3FFw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUdL_st3FFw) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/103 "2019-07-22T22:20:04Z")
Bert Nobbins: > [@](#): > > This is a serious question. Suppose you want a cup of tea on the Sabbath? Basically, you use water that has been heated before the Sabbath and kept hot. Many Jewish homes have electric hot water urns that keep the water hot and you’re simply dispensing it into your cup. Another option is an ordinary tea kettle filled with heated water kept close to a fire on the stovetop. After dispensing the water from the urn/kettle into a cup, it then needs to be poured into another cup, and then (according to some) a third cup, before you’re allowed to put a tea bag into it, because that cools the water down enough so that it is not (by halachic definition) cooking the tea leaves (but it’s still hot enough for the flavor to be effective). dzeiger: > [@](#): > > The immediate problem I see there, even if allowed–if I live on the 17th floor, and the AI takes me there without me doing any “work,” what happens that one day when I want to visit friends on the 7th floor? Walk down the ten flights of stairs. Sure, it’s some effort, but at least you’re not fighting against gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/104 "2019-07-22T22:30:46Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I think this [elevator design](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster) is the ideal solution for this problem. Except, of course, for the higher risk of accidents… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/105 "2019-07-22T22:59:36Z")
Many tea afficionados would argue that water at anything less than boiling (i.e., water that’s cooled down at all) does not, in fact, result in acceptable tea flavor. I suppose those afficianados, if Jewish, must content themselves with waiting until the Sabbath is over. And what form of “work” would be violated by re-filling the urn, that wouldn’t be violated by pouring the tea into the cup? It’d be carrying, of course, but (presumably) entirely within one’s home. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/106 "2019-07-22T23:16:49Z")
Chronos: > [@](#): > > Many tea afficionados would argue that water at anything less than boiling (i.e., water that’s cooled down at all) does not, in fact, result in acceptable tea flavor. I suppose those afficianados, if Jewish, must content themselves with waiting until the Sabbath is over. Afraid so. On Jewish holidays, cooking is allowed because the essence of the holiday is “rejoicing.” On Sabbath, even though we are supposed to eat and drink festively, the essence is “resting” and the physical pleasures being enjoyed in its honor are secondary to that. > [@](#): > > And what form of “work” would be violated by re-filling the urn, that wouldn’t be violated by pouring the tea into the cup? It’d be carrying, of course, but (presumably) entirely within one’s home. Re-filling the urn would not be allowed on Sabbath, because you’d be boiling the water. Pouring hot water into a cup is not cooking. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/107 "2019-07-23T00:03:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Many tea afficionados would argue that water at anything less than boiling (i.e., water that’s cooled down at all) does not, in fact, result in acceptable tea flavor. Other tea afficionados argue that you do not actually want _boiling_ water (that is, 100C) but slightly less than boiling, and may even specify different temperatures to optimize different varieties of tea. But either way, you have to heat water. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/108 "2019-07-23T01:36:02Z")
So, while we’re here asking this kind of question: What do you do if you cross the international date line and _miss Saturday_ (Yes, I know it’s difficult to do, but it’s a common expression, and you’re waiting on one side, with two stars visible, and you – step – across…) Do you take an extra Sabbath, out of respect, and to wind down from the week, and to recharge for the next week? Or do you just say ‘heh’. I’ll make it up with a really long Sabbath later? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/109 "2019-07-23T12:07:07Z")
I’m not sure it’s possible, logistically, to entirely miss Sabbath by doing so, but if you can manage it, I don’t think you’re obligated to keep Sabbath if it is never the Sabbath in the location you’re actually in. However, you should note that this would not apply to the secularly-recognized International Date Line, but rather to the line that Jewish Law considers to be the Date Line. Where exactly that is is something of a question (there are two opinions on that), and in general, Jews find their best option is to avoid the question if at all possible. I myself cut a Hawaiian vacation short by a day in order to avoid that sticky question. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/110 "2019-07-23T14:32:36Z")
BTW, I finally located an archived copy of the Mailbag article I did for this site on the subject of the Sabbath: > **[Straight Dope Staff Report: Can traditional Jews do no work at all on the...](http://web.archive.org/web/20070520052922/http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msabbath.htm)** > > Straight Dope Staff Report: Can traditional Jews do no work at all on the Sabbath? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/111 "2019-07-23T14:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Where exactly that is is something of a question (there are two opinions on that)… That means that only one rabbi has weighed in on the question? 😕 The obvious options I can see are to use the same line as the secular one, to rotate the secular one by 90º to account for the Jewish day ending at sundown rather than at midnight like in secular convention, or to use the longitude 180º away from Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/112 "2019-07-23T14:54:49Z")
If you hired a man to march in the Pride parade for you on the Sabbath, would that make him a gay goy guy? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/113 "2019-07-23T17:53:29Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > So, while we’re here asking this kind of question: > > What do you do if you cross the international date line and _miss Saturday_ > > (Yes, I know it’s difficult to do, but it’s a common expression, and you’re waiting on one side, with two stars visible, and you – step – across…) > > Do you take an extra Sabbath, out of respect, and to wind down from the week, and to recharge for the next week? Or do you just say ‘heh’. I’ll make it up with a really long Sabbath later? > > > [@cmkeller](#): > > > > I’m not sure it’s possible, logistically, to entirely miss Sabbath by doing so, but if you can manage it, I don’t think you’re obligated to keep Sabbath if it is never the Sabbath in the location you’re actually in. > > > > However, you should note that this would not apply to the secularly-recognized International Date Line, but rather to the line that Jewish Law considers to be the Date Line. Where exactly that is is something of a question (there are two opinions on that), and in general, Jews find their best option is to avoid the question if at all possible. I myself cut a Hawaiian vacation short by a day in order to avoid that sticky question. > > > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > > > That means that only one rabbi has weighed in on the question? 😕 > > > > > > The obvious options I can see are to use the same line as the secular one, to rotate the secular one by 90º to account for the Jewish day ending at sundown rather than at midnight like in secular convention, or to use the longitude 180º away from Jerusalem. Oldie but goodie: First Jewish astronaut comes back, they ask him how it went. Answers: "Oy…non-stop… _Shachris, Minchah, Maariv…Shachris, Minchah, Maariv…Shachris, Minchah, Maariv…_ [Shachris, Minchah, Maariv are the morning afternoon and evening prayer times.] About the real decisions for real about this the rabbis have been there, done that. I read about it regarding the Israeli Ilan Ramon, who died in the Columbia shuttle. I’ll look around for more info. Another issue was geographical: Jews face Jerusalem when they pray, and you’ve got a problem there too. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/114 "2019-07-23T19:04:29Z")
In one of his _Star Trek_ novelizations, Alan Dean Foster has the Muslim foreman of an orbital shipbuilding team pray towards Mecca when it passes below. Not every time, though. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/115 "2019-07-23T20:38:52Z")
Chronos: > [@](#): > > That means that only one rabbi has weighed in on the question? Cute 🙂 In all seriousness, there are more than two opinions (and Rabbis), but the two I was referring to are the major ones. Rather than going through all the various reasonings, I will just post a link to [this document which discusses the different opinions](https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/493/a-travelers-guide-to-the-international-dateline/) (three, not just the two I had been referring to as the major ones) and it also includes discussions of such questions as crossing over the date line on the Sabbath or on other significant dates. BTW, you are correct that one of those opinions is 180 degrees east/west of Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/116 "2019-07-24T04:35:30Z")
> [@SirRay](#): > > A slight diversion from the main topic I fear, but IMO a somewhat relevant question which came to me recently when I passed a jewelry store posting ‘Sabbath’ hours - early Friday close, reopen Sunday morning (don’t recall Saturday night hours posted on the signage). > > In many areas of the US (and apparently in Canada and areas of Europe, etc.), up until the mid-20th century (or later), there were Blue Laws, which prohibited shopping and other commercial activities (probably other activities as well). > So…the observant Jewish store owner had to miss out on both Saturday (big shopping day) and Sunday commerce, or were accommodations made that they could operate on Sunday and make up the lost sales? I would tend to doubt this, as they could then be seen as getting somewhat of an advantage over their Gentile competition, and I don’t see most governments of the era going for that. > So what was normally the case back then? Bergen County, NJ still has these laws on the books - and it’s got a substantial Jewish population (my husband is from there, and still has family there). There are periodic attempts to repeal them but so far, nothing. Certain stores are exempt - grocery stores for example, and I gather you can purchase periodicals but not actual books (so as my MIL said: you can buy Playboy but not the Bible). And it means that an observant Jew has very little time to shop. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/117 "2019-07-24T04:45:34Z")
I gave up trying to figure out the rules long ago. My wife is Seventh Day Adventist, and they just don’t get why we get into such legalistic detail. Just rest! Now I get why they did what they did. It actually has to get legalistic when the rules have to be enforceable and agreed upon, which is how Jews lived for centuries. But I’m not playing that game. Sabbath is a day off from work of all kinds, and any pleasures I want to engage in that aren’t strenuous are just not “work” by any reasonable definition consistent with the spirit of the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/118 "2019-07-24T06:52:00Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It sounds like paternosters might have been rare (if not entirely non-existant) in the U.S.; I’d certainly never heard of or seen one here. > > On the other hand, we do have the similar-but-even-scarier device here called a [manlift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_manlift), though they’re rarely (if ever) used in places where they’d be used by the general public (I think they’re only used in industrial applications). A manlift is basically the same idea as a paternoster, except that there aren’t elevator cars – there are just handholds and footrests, and to use one, you essentially step out over an open hole in the floor to grab onto it. I’m pretty sure I saw [a manlift in lots of North American arcades in the 1980s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBHJhla8TO4&t=255s). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/119 "2019-07-24T07:47:02Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I think this [elevator design](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster) is the ideal solution for this problem. It has the added advantage of being called a paternoster (I hope I am not the only one who thinks that is funny in this context). And the do exist and are still funktioning! Apart from the examples quoted in the article just in Berlin there is one in the Baubehörde in the Bayrischer Platz and one or maybe several in the Auswärtiges Amt. Re “paternoster” elevators – not sure whether I’ve encountered one at first-hand; but I happened to know the expression (and I agree - reckon it charming) from having, at school, read a short story by the German author Heinrich Boell, in the original German – in which a character regularly uses such an elevator (in Bavaria IIRC), and has a bit of a mental “thing” about it. Luckily for me, the book containing the story – edited for those learning German – had an explanation in English, of the p-word in this context. I’m not Catholic, and half a century-odd ago, the word “paternoster” was meaningless to me until I chanced upon this reference. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/120 "2019-07-24T16:44:22Z")
adaher: > [@](#): > > Now I get why they did what they did. It actually has to get legalistic when the rules have to be enforceable and agreed upon, which is how Jews lived for centuries. But I’m not playing that game. Sabbath is a day off from work of all kinds, and any pleasures I want to engage in that aren’t strenuous are just not “work” by any reasonable definition consistent with the spirit of the Sabbath. It’s more than just a matter of enforcement. It’s a love of G-d that (at least, ideally) leads Jews to examine his words for minute details of how to follow them. The fine detailing on the Mitzvos we perform are like fine detailing on a painting or a sculpture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267.md?page=7)