# Ways Around Jewish Sabbath Restrictions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267 "2019-07-18T18:37:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/121 "2019-07-25T03:47:10Z")
> [@SirRay](#): > > A slight diversion from the main topic I fear, but IMO a somewhat relevant question which came to me recently when I passed a jewelry store posting ‘Sabbath’ hours - early Friday close, reopen Sunday morning (don’t recall Saturday night hours posted on the signage). > > In many areas of the US (and apparently in Canada and areas of Europe, etc.), up until the mid-20th century (or later), there were Blue Laws, which prohibited shopping and other commercial activities (probably other activities as well). > So…the observant Jewish store owner had to miss out on both Saturday (big shopping day) and Sunday commerce, or were accommodations made that they could operate on Sunday and make up the lost sales? I would tend to doubt this, as they could then be seen as getting somewhat of an advantage over their Gentile competition, and I don’t see most governments of the era going for that. > So what was normally the case back then? The general store where I was buying clothing was operated by the sales clerks. The owner was present 5 days a week, but it wasn’t him making the sales and watching for theft. I can see where a small jewellery business would be different, but from my childhood I don’t remember that Saturday was a big day for jewellery sales anyway. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/122 "2019-07-25T11:22:51Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > The general store where I was buying clothing was operated by the sales clerks. The owner was present 5 days a week, but it wasn’t him making the sales and watching for theft. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that it’s not just work that’s prohibited- it’s also earning money . There’s a camera store in NYC that doesn’t even take online orders during the Sabbath. > [@](#): > > Online checkout will be closed while we observe Shabbat from 8:15pm ET Fri until 9:30pm ET Sat. Although online ordering is unavailable, you may still add items to your cart or wish list. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/123 "2019-07-25T13:11:52Z")
Yes, handling money is prohibited, and on-line sales would be affected by that. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/124 "2019-07-25T14:15:07Z")
Any place of business that is closed for the Jewish Sabbath, the first two and the last two days of Passover, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper is totally outside the NJ Blue Laws, so they can be open on Sunday and can sell anything. And the store I work at does incredible business on Sundays. And Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/125 "2019-07-26T07:25:01Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > They are called paternosters because the cabins lined up and slowly moving remind of praying the rosary with the help of beads on a string. Yes, that sounds like a possible explanation for the name. The other explanation I heard is because they are frightening, especially when you go around the top or the bottom, which is possible, because the cabin does not flip around, but moves laterally, but still it makes you pray it works though they claim it is completely safe. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/126 "2019-07-26T07:29:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except, of course, for the higher risk of accidents… Paternosters are pretty safe, otherwise the Germans would not use them in their [Ministry of Foreign Affairs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNdXWO1ernQ). And if G\*d commands it \*and \*it brings you closer to Him or Her… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/127 "2019-07-26T08:06:57Z")
Safe? What sort of automatic stop feature does it have if you aren’t all the way through the opening when it passes the opening, risking getting a limb caught? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/128 "2019-07-26T20:06:48Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > There is the [Kosher light switch](https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-should-we-laugh-at-the-jewish-light-switch-1.5408457). I’m trying to figure out how this thing is different from a regular light switch. I was watching a video by the inventor on YouTube, but with the sound off at work. Lots of great visuals … but nothing that demonstrates that using the KosherSwitch is different than using a regular switch. My initial assumption was that the KosherSwitch is a “Russian Roulette” device, randomly set to only work one out of three times or something like that. But that doesn’t seem borne out by the video’s visuals. Guess I’ll watch with the sound on and see if it makes more sense 😃 _(Just watched with sound on)_ Ah, OK … at heart, it is a “Russian Roulette” device. But I can see why a lot of rabbis don’t like the KosherSwitch – it seems to reliably turn on/off a light in a short time frame. To fulfill the law … it would have to have a substantial chance of never turning on or off all Sabbath long, I’d assume. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/129 "2019-07-26T22:30:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Electricity and electrically operated things are regarded, by a process of logic that may or may not make sense to gentiles, as a sort of “fire”. Thus, you can turn on an electric light (because that’s starting a “fire”) but neither can you turn one out (because that is putting one out). It is, however, entirely OK to cover and uncover a light source. This has led at least one inventor to create a [Shabbat lamp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_lamp) in which the bulb is always on and the user opens/closes the lamp shade to control the amount of light emitted from the device. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/130 "2019-07-27T12:26:54Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > It is, however, entirely OK to cover and uncover a light source. This has led at least one inventor to create a [Shabbat lamp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_lamp) in which the bulb is always on and the user opens/closes the lamp shade to control the amount of light emitted from the device. So why not a cooking device that is always on on Sabbath with a “door” to let heat into an oven area in adjustable amounts? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/131 "2019-07-28T04:24:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Safe? What sort of automatic stop feature does it have if you aren’t all the way through the opening when it passes the opening, risking getting a limb caught? As I recall, the Germans got very close to banning them entirely, but pulled back because (1) People who use them think they are cool, and (2) They couldn’t find any numbers indicating that they actually are, in fact, unsafe. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/132 "2019-07-28T07:07:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Safe? What sort of automatic stop feature does it have if you aren’t all the way through the opening when it passes the opening, risking getting a limb caught? I don’t know, but I have never heard of an accident. They are not very fast, I have used them and the experience is like getting on and off an escalator. A very steep escalator, but nothing to write home about. Actually, I have read about many accidents in escalators, so you might consider banning them instead. Of course there are a lot more escalators than paternosters in use, so the data are skewed. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/133 "2019-07-28T14:03:16Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > So why not a cooking device that is always on on Sabbath with a “door” to let heat into an oven area in adjustable amounts? Because cooking is one of the activities that is also prohibited on the Sabbath. (This is an entirely separate prohibition and has nothing to do with the one against the igniting or dousing of a fire.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/134 "2019-07-29T21:57:06Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’m not sure it’s possible, logistically, to entirely miss Sabbath by doing so, but if you can manage it, I don’t think you’re obligated to keep Sabbath if it is never the Sabbath in the location you’re actually in. > > However, you should note that this would not apply to the secularly-recognized International Date Line, but rather to the line that Jewish Law considers to be the Date Line. Where exactly that is is something of a question (there are two opinions on that), and in general, Jews find their best option is to avoid the question if at all possible. I myself cut a Hawaiian vacation short by a day in order to avoid that sticky question. That reminds me of a question I have mused about. I was told that the reason most Jewish holidays are celebrated for two days in the west and only one in Israel is to make sure that we overlap completely with the Israeli celebration. But for those us who are west of Israel, this is all wrong. If that reason were correct, we would be celebrating it the day _before_ the date it is celebrated in Israel, not the day after (along with the date it is celebrated in Israel). Of course, reform shuls have abandoned the second day tradition. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/135 "2019-07-29T23:18:15Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Because cooking is one of the activities that is also prohibited on the Sabbath. (This is an entirely separate prohibition and has nothing to do with the one against the igniting or dousing of a fire.) As pointed out upthread, holidays are exceptions from the cooking ban. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/136 "2019-07-30T02:47:50Z")
Hari Seldon: > [@](#): > > That reminds me of a question I have mused about. I was told that the reason most Jewish holidays are celebrated for two days in the west and only one in Israel is to make sure that we overlap completely with the Israeli celebration. You were misinformed. It is not to celebrate at the same time as Israel. It is because in ancient times, the new month was declared based on witnesses sighting the new moon (backed up by astronomical calculations) and not automatically changed based on a fixed calendar. It was possible for the witnesses to come to the high court even minutes before sunset and result in the new month being declared while faraway communities (e.g., those in Babylonia) did not know yet which day was the beginning of the new month. Therefore, the Rabbis decreed that Jews outside of Israel should keep various holidays for two days because it was uncertain outside of Israel which of two possible days was the true holiday. This is why even in Israel, Rosh Hashana is kept for two days (although the Torah only says it is a one-day holiday) - since it’s the first day of the month, even in Israel, it might not be known when witnesses come to tell of the sighting of the new moon When the Jewish leader Hillel II set the Jewish months to a fixed calendar in perpetuity (circa 359 CE), the Jews in the diaspora were expected to keep the holiday for two days despite the new certainty, a) because it is improper to take a day that is already considered holy and reduce it to ordinary, and b) that it should not be forgotten that the proper way to declare a new month is by witness testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/137 "2019-07-30T18:09:36Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > As pointed out upthread, holidays are exceptions from the cooking ban. Well, except if they fall on Sabbath, right? (This might have been mentioned up thread.) And if Yom Kippur falls on a Saturday night…hoo boy. Which meant the Orthodox women (usually) has to prepare: A festive full meal for Sabbath. A festive full meal for Yom Kippur, where one is encouraged to eat a full meal-- many people, logically, want to ease into the fast bit-by-bit.\* Which you have had to have had prepared before the night before.\*\* Which, _while fasting_, you have to prepare using the tools allowed to you (a flame, if you’ve set it up beforehand)\*\*\* and prepped food while ducking out of synagogue in the brief moments allowed, and then for absolute sure going back for the last hour (“The Closing of the Gates”). I’ve done it for my wife, and brother it’s hard, and we we have no kids, and had no guests that night, although we usually do. \*The meal is considered “festive” because although some life-or-death decisions will be made by The True Judge, at least you’re getting your day in court and we’re told his mercy endures forever. \*\*Can that actually be the correct compound compound tense as I write in the present? I’m sticking with it… \*\*\*With all the interest in this thread and outside about a Shabbes Goy, it is considered an un-cool thing to do and when at all posssible you prepare (also a Yiddish word) a\_[blech](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blech).\_ ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/138 "2019-07-30T18:28:38Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > … Of course, reform shuls have abandoned the second day tradition. There’s no “of course” about this, and in fact I believe, nowadays, it may be far far fewer than you imagine. In the early radical days that might have been another story; I am unaware of the current multiple Reform decisions from their leaderships. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Any place of business that is closed for the Jewish Sabbath, the first two and the last two days of Passover, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper is totally outside the NJ Blue Laws, so they can be open on Sunday and can sell anything. Yom Kippur is one day only. (No Yommim Kippurim 🙂 ) Cx; ignore bold subject header on this post. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/139 "2019-07-30T18:40:58Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Oldie but goodie: > > First Jewish astronaut comes back, they ask him how it went. Answers: "Oy…non-stop… _Shachris, Minchah, Maariv…Shachris, Minchah, Maariv…Shachris, Minchah, Maariv…_ > > [Shachris, Minchah, Maariv are the morning afternoon and evening prayer times.] > > About the real decisions for real about this the rabbis have been there, done that. > > I read about it regarding the Israeli Ilan Ramon, who died in the Columbia shuttle. > > I’ll look around for more info. Another issue was geographical: Jews face Jerusalem when they pray, and you’ve got a problem there too. **[Shabbat in Outer Space](http://nleresources.com/kiruv-and-chinuch/nle-gemara/shabbat-in-outer-space/#.XUCNW8opCfA)** Downloadable 29-page PDF. Apparently a topic in theoretical discussion since the 1960s, but since the imminent (at the time) flight of Ramon, these discussions and recommendations of halachic interpretation were made a tad more urgent, if one might say so, and reclassified to those of _Halacha l’ma’aseh_ ie, Halacha for real (“ma’seh”), current life. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267/140 "2019-07-30T18:47:22Z")
ETA, on existence of “reclassification”: I for one, never knew such a classification system exists, which is kinda cool. Eg, there are mountains of halachot and mitzvot on the operation of the Temple, eg, and one doesn’t go about choosing which mitzvot and halachot one decides to follow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-around-jewish-sabbath-restrictions/837267.md?page=8)