I think that depends on the time of year and the exact location- I visit an in-law in Rochester ,NY every June, and sunset is about 9 pm. Six hours brings you to 3am - and depending on what the food is and what time you want to eat breakfast, that may be good enough.
Serious question:
Do Jews think God is stupid (in which case, why are you worshiping an idiot?), is not paying attention (in which case, why bother following the rules?), or is a lawyer (in which case, they’re all going to [del]Hell[/del] Gehinnom no matter what :D)? Do they really think their god can’t see through these silly ruses?
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Which ruses? I got the impression from Post #4 that tricks like pre-programming an elevator or hiring someone else to operate it are in fact forbidden. As for cooking a meal in advance and leaving it on a hot plate, apparently that is permitted and not a ruse.
Maybe they just believe that God prohibited what he meant to prohibit and that if he didn’t say you couldn’t use a fire started before the Sabbath to keep food warm, he didn’t intend to forbid it. After all, the rule isn’t “You can’t eat hot food on the Sabbath”
[Moderating]
I think such a question is better suited for Great Debates than here.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Sorry if these questions seem naive, but I wondered: Is any reading allowed? Is it restricted to reading scripture? Or no reading at all? Are there restrictions on talking?
Wheb my uncle was a child he was once asked by neighbors who didn’t know our family to turn on a light on the Sabboth. He didn’t know enough to say no and it caused a small crisis.
Anyone who is Jewish by Jewish law, whether they consider themselves Jews or not, should never be enticed to break the Sabbath. Neither should the an observant Jew benefit from it. So make sure who you ask.
The start of the Iron Age was around 1200 BC (obviously, it will vary a bit depending where in the world you’re talking about). The earliest proto-Hebraic writings date from around 1100 BC. Presumably, there were Hebrew/Israeli traditions from prior to that date, so yes, the earliest bits are arguably Bronze Age, not Iron Age.
Serious question: why are you assuming God is upset?
How do you know the purpose wasn’t to breed a tribe of clever rules lawyers? Maybe God applauds every time someone finds a work-around to the rules.
Yes, reading is allowed. Writing is not allowed. However, many restrict the types of reading, see this link for more information.
I’ve never heard of restrictions on talking, but as the Sabbath is holy you should stick to conversations compatible with that.
The immediate problem I see there, even if allowed–if I live on the 17th floor, and the AI takes me there without me doing any “work,” what happens that one day when I want to visit friends on the 7th floor?
If it’s okay to tell a stranger “My pilot light went out” with the hope that they will light it, it seems like it might be okay to walk in an elevator and say “I wish I could see my friend John Smith” with the hope that it will stop on the 7th floor where he lives. If the AI in the elevator happens to be listening and goes to John Smith’s floor, would that be allowed? Or even just “I hope it’s God’s will that this elevator happens to stop on the 7th floor.”
How do you use the Sabbath-compatible ovens if cooking is itself also not allowed?
It’s interesting to see all of the Touhy Avenue references. I drive through West Rogers Park on Touhy pretty often. I’ve spotted what I think might be an eruv wire above the stoplight at the end of the Touhy ramp @Cicero from northbound Edens.
We’re talking about the Levant. 1200 BCE is right.
Or Phoenician. Or Canaanite. It’s well into the Iron Age before you have anything you can unambiguously call Hebraic.
And none of that is texts of the Laws.
“Laid down” implies written. Oral laws are irrelevant. Current scholarship (ever since the collapse of consensus on the the documentary hypothesis) largely agrees that the roots of the compiled laws date to no earlier than Josaic laws - 7th C. BCE. Definitely well into the Iron Age.
Hence the “proto” (or sometimes “paleo”) prefix you see in front of it.
Not in a largely illiterate culture. The Jewish laws did not spring fully-formed out of someone’s head in 7th century BC, they were developed centuries before.
I assume the truly conservative don’t. Otherwise, according to the wiki article, people take precautions like completely cooking the food before the Sabbath, not covering it completely, not letting the pot touch any surface or letting it completely cool if the intention is to return it to the oven.
I think you missed my point - there’s nothing Bronze Age you can point to and say “That’s definitely Hebrew and not Canaanite or Phoenician”. And that’s very significant when it comes to the Laws, as those other cultures had different laws.
Yes, even there. “Largely illiterate” is not the same as “Illiterate” - that’s partly what all those damn stele every Levantine culture erects were for. Laying down the Law for public dissemination.
500 years before (at a minimum)? Containing all the major elements we’d recognise as Mosaic Law? Yet also so many elements of Babylonian laws? That’s a hypothesis without evidence. And we know new religious traditions can arise in a generation or less.
A slight diversion from the main topic I fear, but IMO a somewhat relevant question which came to me recently when I passed a jewelry store posting ‘Sabbath’ hours - early Friday close, reopen Sunday morning (don’t recall Saturday night hours posted on the signage).
In many areas of the US (and apparently in Canada and areas of Europe, etc.), up until the mid-20th century (or later), there were Blue Laws, which prohibited shopping and other commercial activities (probably other activities as well).
So…the observant Jewish store owner had to miss out on both Saturday (big shopping day) and Sunday commerce, or were accommodations made that they could operate on Sunday and make up the lost sales? I would tend to doubt this, as they could then be seen as getting somewhat of an advantage over their Gentile competition, and I don’t see most governments of the era going for that.
So what was normally the case back then?
A lot to respond to here, I will try to tackle everything in order.
Regallag_the_Axe:
According to my Rabbi, it’s allowed, and in fact that’s how the elevator in our synagogue is used by disabled congregants on Sabbath.
Probably not permitted, as specific machine behavior is being triggered by your actions.
It’s not part of “keeping kosher” which is a term that specifically refers to the Jewish dietary laws, but the Hebrew word “kosher” simply means “suitable” and can apply to many objects and behaviors, and would not be out of place the way you used it in your post.
Chronos:
The rules of this are complex, but in simplest terms, one cannot use a non-Jewish agent to do that which the Torah says not to do. One may use a non-Jewish agent, in certain circumstances, to do things that the Rabbis say not to do (this is what a “Shabbos Goy” is used for). Operating an elevator which does not have any indicator lights that go on or off is considered by many to be a rabbinic rather than Torah prohibition. (Lights going on or off would be a Torah prohibition to even those.)
kenobi 65:
In appliances, this generally applies to matters like indicator lights not going on or off when certain (permitted on Sabbath, if it wouldn’t trigger the lights) human actions occur.
Helmut Doork:
Yes, there is, I wrote a Mailbag article about the subject, though it has gone missing from this web site. Basically, what’s prohibited on the Sabbath is “creative work”, not work as in physical exertion. This definition is tied to the labors that were performed in order to construct the Tabernacle in the desert (Exodus 25-31, 35-40), and the specific types of creative work are first listed in the Mishnah, tractate Sabbath, 7:2. There are many books of Jewish law that discuss these in detail. If you want me to, let me know, but I’ll save that for a different post.
Broomstick:
Because extinguishing a flame is one of the types of creative work that was used for the Tabernacle. It was part of the process of making charcoal, which was used in the metalworking.
Most Rabbis consider it to not be within the Torah definition of “fire” but do prohibit it Rabbinically, because of the similarities. However, incandescent light bulbs are considered by even those to be “fire” according to the Torah.
Darren Garrison:
That only applies to the “creative work” category of carrying. It has no effect on prohibitions of electronic devices or other Sabbath prohibitions. I could go into more detail on this later, if desired.
Mr. Bill:
Both of them are part of what Orthodox Jews conform to.
Hari Seldon:
That’s not the reason they take them down. The dispute isn’t over the propriety of having an Eruv at all. The dispute is whether, according to Halacha, these parts of Brooklyn can have a valid Eruv. An Eruv only permits carrying in an area where carrying is forbidden by Rabbinic law, not by Torah law. Those taking down the Brooklyn eruvs are of the opinion that Brooklyn is an area where Torah law would prohibit carrying. They don’t want unwitting Jews to see the wires and think they are allowed to carry there.
No one is “attempting to fool G-d.”
Smapti:
Well, it requires preparation beforehand to not work.
Broomstick:
I can’t speak to the details of that matter, but I can think of at least two reasons why that might have been required for them to make their eruv kosher. I know that for my local eruv in Queens, the Rabbis get permission to block off Main Street for about 15 minutes in the wee hours of the morning to satisfy one of the elements of halachic “ownership” of the area within the eruv. (I don’t know how frequently they need to do this)
dropzone:
A jar of peanut butter should be just fine. Can of tuna maybe not, there are (you’ll never believe it!) differing opinions on the opening of sealed metal cans.
psychonaut:
Absolutely not. It is wrong to lead another Jew to sin, even if they don’t think they’re sinning.
Got it in one.
DCnDC:
They’re not “silly ruses”. They’re living within the rules. The letter of the law IS the spirit of the law. So no, G-d is not stupid, G-d is paying attention, and G-d is happy (I hope!) with how meticulously we observe the Sabbath as he commanded.
Einstein’s Hund:
Reading is allowed, and definitely the more spiritual the content the better. But as long as the reading is not for the sake of matters forbidden on the Sabbath (e.g., not advertisements or manuals for electronic devices), I don’t think there’s anything genuinely prohibited for the sake of the Sabbath.
Based on a verse in Isaiah, one should honor the Sabbath by speaking differently (e.g., more refined - make a greater effort to avoid profanity, or not speak of filthy matters) than one would during the week. One shouldn’t speak of business, nor of plans for after the Sabbath. However, these guidelines do not rise to the level of a Torah prohibition.
jnglmassiv:
It’s something of a misnomer. It’s really used for jewish holidays, when cooking IS allowed, but work that is prohibited on the Sabbath and is not strictly for food preparation is still not allowed. For example, one can cook food on an existing fire, but one cannot light a fire to begin with (because the food would be just as good if cooked on a fire that had been burning since before the holiday, so there is no permission to light it on the holiday. But freshly cooked is better than cooking earlier and then heating up or eating cold).
I am so not getting involved in the Bronze Age-Iron Age discussion.