# Ways to avoid PKs to get a winner in football/soccer **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136 "2019-07-15T17:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/21 "2019-07-16T07:04:17Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > They also have free substitution, which would seem to be necessary if you’re going to allow extra time to just keep going and going until there’s a winner. Which is my simple idea. I’ve been touting it for years. Go to SUnday League substitution after 90 minutes. Play 9 v 9 too if you need to. By the way…just to show the disrespect Soccer got in the USA when i was a teen: In our city we had the first all high school tourney. One day we had to play two games in one day. One poor team had to play THREE FUCKING GAMES in one day. Can you imagine the shit-fit if they made a gridiron football team play three games in one day?? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/22 "2019-07-16T07:49:16Z")
You can’t just keep going until someone scores as that could last indefinitely (even with reduced numbers of players, which in itself could descend into farce - more so than PKs, in my view). It’s not uncommon for games to finish 0-0 after 90 or even 120 minutes, to carry on for another indefinite period after that would be ridiculous. It’s like democracy as a system of government - it’s the worst way, except all the other ways that have been tried. I do agree that PKs after 90 minutes (with the winner of the shootout gaining one goal) is (the only suggestion) worth a trial. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/23 "2019-07-16T10:29:00Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > you have a sport where it’s very hard to score and then you decide a game by a method where it’s very easy to score? Not very logical to put it nicely. The kicks can’t decide it, the game is already over. They’re deciding something else at that point. Strictly speaking, Kicks From The Penalty Mark (KFTPM) aren’t soccer.\* They look kinda like soccer, what with that goal-frame, the referee, and a soccer ball, but they’re not soccer. For one thing, there’s no way to score a goal during KFTPM and you need goal(s) to win a soccer game. KFTPM can not decide the winner of a match because if a match goes to KFTPM that means it’s already ended in a draw after 120 minutes. Game over, final result: 0-0, or 2-2 or whatever. A draw. But in a knockout competition (like the World Cup, e.g.) there has to be a way to determine which of the two teams that drew will advance in the competition (or win it all if it’s the championship match). Now, it used to be they would draw lots to determine who advanced. Other times I believe they simply re-played the match on a different day. At some point it was changed to KFTPM. I like the kicks best, even though it’s not soccer. \*They are not even Penalty Kicks. PKs can only happen during the actual game, not afterward. That’s why the above are called Kicks from the Penalty Mark, not Penalty Kicks… I wasn’t just being pedantic. I believe if people learn the correct terms it can help them better understand the concepts behind the terms. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/24 "2019-07-16T10:41:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think the best idea is the penalty shoot-out after 90, then the extra time. It seems to offer the best balance of fairness. As I’ve said in the many other threads about this Uniquely American\* concern, I also believe the kicks after 90 thing is the best option for replacing KFTPM. \*Full disclosure: I am 100% American. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/25 "2019-07-16T15:24:46Z")
kicks after 90 or 120 is tantamount to settling a tied basketball game with best of five free throws. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/26 "2019-07-16T16:55:05Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > kicks after 90 or 120 is tantamount to settling a tied basketball game with best of five free throws. No point in comparing basketball to football. The high-scoring nature of the former means that ties are easily broken or avoided under normal play. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/27 "2019-07-16T17:20:11Z")
Granted that the kicks (whatever you call them) aren’t Real Soccer, but they’re still a heck of a lot closer to Real Soccer than coin-flips are. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/28 "2019-07-16T17:28:55Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > By the way…just to show the disrespect Soccer got in the USA when i was a teen: In our city we had the first all high school tourney. One day we had to play two games in one day. One poor team had to play THREE FUCKING GAMES in one day. > > Can you imagine the shit-fit if they made a gridiron football team play three games in one day?? I played soccer in high school and it can physically wear you out, and can be painful. I had injuries, I even broke a toe once in practice. It’s not table tennis. But you can’t compare it to gridiron football. In soccer you run around somewhat, you might get pulled muscles, occasionally you’ll collid with something or someone. Football is full-on contact, it’s just shy of hand-to-hand combat. You might literally kill people asking them to play 3 games in a day. That’s not a respect thing, it’s a safety thing. Baseball though, I could see 3 games in a day. (As long as you’re not pitching 27 innings.) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/29 "2019-07-16T17:29:58Z")
Sudden-death extra time with\*\* no goalies \*\*would make for frenetic, hectic soccer…but would probably give an unfair advantage to the team that had possession of the ball first. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/30 "2019-07-16T17:31:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It has been tried, extensively. All it does is encourage defensive play and a general dissatisfaction. The players didn’t like it and the fans didn’t like it. > > Apart from that…yeah, perfect solution. I would have thought it would have encouraged the exact opposite; full-on offensive aggression. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/31 "2019-07-16T17:44:52Z")
What about some sort of situation like 2 forwards against the goalie, but with some restrictions to make it competitive. For example, kick shots can only be taken outside the penalty box. Within the box, a player can only use their body above the waist. If a player touches the ball with their foot within the box, the ball has to go outside the box before a shot can be taken. Something like that would have the two forwards either trying to drill it in from outside the box, or come up with some sort of trick play to get a header in. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/32 "2019-07-16T18:43:33Z")
I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can’t get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair. . ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/33 "2019-07-16T19:59:12Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can’t get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair. > > . Sounds bloodthirsty, and you’d probably have to hold matches on floating platforms in international waters to avoid law enforcement interference, but I support it. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/34 "2019-07-16T20:26:05Z")
a way to reduce ties is to increase offense but they seem to have no interest in that. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/35 "2019-07-16T20:31:42Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > You can’t just keep going until someone scores as that could last indefinitely (even with reduced numbers of players, which in itself could descend into farce - more so than PKs, in my view). It’s not uncommon for games to finish 0-0 after 90 or even 120 minutes, to carry on for another indefinite period after that would be ridiculous. This may be a cultural thing, for all I know, but when a winner is required all four of our major professional sports leagues keep playing until someone wins. This is less a concern with basketball or football, but both baseball games and hockey games can go on for truly staggering amounts of time. Thus, you end up with things like [this](https://www.nhl.com/news/this-date-in-nhl-history-march-24/c-279805016): > [@](#): > > 1936: Mud Bruneteau scores at 16:30 of the sixth overtime to give the Detroit Red Wings a 1-0 win against the Montreal Maroons at the Forum in what remains the longest game in NHL history. > > The Red Wings and Maroons play the equivalent of nearly three full games. > > \ > > Though shots on goal aren’t an official NHL statistic, Red Wings goalie Normie Smith, who loses 12 pounds of body weight during the game, reportedly makes 92 saves. And [this:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_innings#Major_League_Baseball) > [@](#): > > The longest American League game, and tied for the longest major league game by innings which ended with one team winning, was a 7–6 victory by the Chicago White Sox over the Milwaukee Brewers in 25 innings, at Comiskey Park in Chicago in 1984. The game began at 7:30 p.m. on May 8, 1984, and after scoring early runs both teams scored twice in the 8th inning; but the game was suspended after 17 innings with the score tied 3–3 due to a league curfew rule prohibiting an inning from beginning after 12:59 a.m. The game was continued the following evening, May 9, 1984, and both teams scored three times in the 21st inning to make the score 6–6; finally, in the bottom of the 25th, the White Sox’ Harold Baines hit a walk-off home run to end the contest. Tom Seaver was the winning pitcher in relief. A regularly scheduled game followed, meaning both nights saw 17 innings played; Seaver also started, and won, the second game. The official time of the entire 25-inning game was 8 hours, 6 minutes, also a major league record. Coincidentally, this also comes out as close to three full regulation games in length. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/36 "2019-07-16T20:34:40Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can’t get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair. > > . I like this:) ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/37 "2019-07-16T20:50:08Z")
the NHL had regular season ties until 2005. They played a 5 minute OT but they could still end up in a tie . College FB had ties until the 90s. So for a long time those 2 sports were OK with ties. (the NFL can have ties now but they are not common. ) ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/38 "2019-07-16T21:17:35Z")
Sure. And association football/soccer also has ties, of course. What I mean is that when a winner _must_ be determined, association football uses extra time and then PKs, while MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA all keep playing extra time with something analogous either to a golden goal (NFL[sup]1[/sup], NHL) or to a silver goal (MLB, NBA), but without restrictions on the amount of extra time required. [sup]1[/sup] More or less. NFL overtime rules are slightly more complicated essentially because there are multiple ways to score. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/39 "2019-07-16T21:22:17Z")
until 2018 the US Open golf had an additional 18 holes of golf to break a tie. They played the extra round the next day. Now they use 2 holes total score to break a tie. The world cup could continue a tie championship game the next day when players are rested but I think the odds of that being tried are close to 0. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/40 "2019-07-16T21:32:43Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > until 2018 the US Open golf had an additional 18 holes of golf to break a tie. They played the extra round the next day. Now they use 2 holes total score to break a tie. > > The world cup could continue a tie championship game the next day when players are rested but I think the odds of that being tried are close to 0. Shockingly to me, UK soccer cup finals in the early 20th had full game replays if the final ended tied: > **[1911–12 FA Cup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911%E2%80%9312_FA_Cup)** > > The 1911–12 FA Cup was the 41st season of the world's oldest association football competition, the Football Association Challenge Cup (more usually known as the FA Cup). Barnsley won the competition for the first time, beating West Bromwich Albion 1–0 after extra time in the replay of the final at Bramall Lane in Sheffield, through a goal from Harry Tufnell. The first match, held at Crystal Palace, London, was a 0–0 draw. > Matches were scheduled to be played at the stadium of the team named fir... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136.md?page=3)