# Ways to Curtail Gun Crime **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885 "2008-12-05T17:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/21 "2008-12-06T02:05:17Z")
Yes, people have always managed to find weapons to kill each other with, but guns are a lot easier to kill each other with. If I get into a fistfight with someone else, we’ll probably both have bruises by the time the fight is ended. If I get into a clubfight with someone, one or both of us may have a concussion by the time it’s over. If I get into a gunfight with someone, then one or both of us is likely to be dead when it’s over. In any event, if we want to reduce gun crime (which, while not all violent crime, is a particularly lethal component of it), it seems to me that the first step would be to take a good look at the rest of the free world (western Europe, Australia, Japan, etc.), and figure out what they’re doing right that we’re not. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/22 "2008-12-06T03:31:20Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > and when anti-board-with-nail legislation is drafted, the criminals will move on to pointed sticks, when anti-pointed-stick legislation is drafted, criminals will move on to fresh fruit, where will it end? i’ll take my chances taking a hit from an unripe pear. What i was trying to say, is to find ways to reduce violent crimes, and that is a freakonomics-esque task to undertake. to filter away all the noise and isolate a causation rather than correlation of violent crimes is pretty much an impossible task, but i do think that getting rid of at risk youths (through contraceptives, abortions, or more orwellian means) is a good start. I know that makes me sound like a heartless bastard, but isn’t it more heartless to bring in a child to a single-parent drug filled environment? To cut down on violent crimes other than eliminating the perpetrators in conception, we can cut down on the causes, the most realistic of which is to cut down on the coveting - combat poverty and raise education. OR, if you want to lower the number of deaths resulting from violent deaths, you just reduce the means of violent death that results in death, and that means a complete shut down of the arms-manufacturing market. The department of homeland security actually doing something productive than just preventing me from carrying toothpaste and deodorant onto planes and crack down on gun ownership. Domestic gunfire have posed a greater risk to homeland security than osama bin laden ever dreamed. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/23 "2008-12-06T06:17:53Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > The thread about guns killing people has been hijacked enough, and I know that there have been threads on this topic in the past, but how can we reduce gun crime in America? I posited that if we get rid of handguns, or somehow outlawed them, the handguns would (eventually) end up out of the hands of the criminals. 😕 :(:smack: :eek: :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/24 "2008-12-06T06:25:29Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > 😕 :(:smack: :eek: :mad: Maybe a Brit Doper could help me out here. As I understand it, gun ownership there is nearly impossible. Yet crime continues, with the criminals either armed with guns, or the victims with no way to defend themselves against a bigger guy with a knife or a blunt object or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/25 "2008-12-06T18:22:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Quite a claim. Any basis for it? Do have some ideas for preventing crime with investment of resources that have been shown to be effective? I’d be very interested in it. As to the efficacy of punishment, I doubt that building many more prisons will help much. > > It would seem intuitive to me that the opposite is true: that enforcing the laws that are already on the books designed to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals would be fairly cost-effective. > > Secure storage in manners that make theft of weapons less common would also help. Further reductions in strawman purchases, again by actually investing in enforcement of current laws alone, could be useful. You’re right, I wasn’t clear-I was thinking re the OP about the feasibility of banning guns. I didn’t mean there shouldn’t be laws designed to enforce responsibility in acquiring and keeping guns. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/26 "2008-12-06T19:25:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe a Brit Doper could help me out here. As I understand it, gun ownership there is nearly impossible. Yet crime continues, with the criminals either armed with guns, or the victims with no way to defend themselves against a bigger guy with a knife or a blunt object or whatever. Many years ago I was in Old Bailey watching the trial of two men accused of robbing a rural grocery store. The old women who worked at the store chased the away by throwing tins (cans) of peas at them. Not only did the judge sentence the thieves to jail, he also made fun of their utter incompetence in such a manner that their testes may still not have grown back to full size. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/27 "2008-12-07T02:44:35Z")
If decreasing gun crime requires more restrictions on gun ownership for everyone, then I would rather we did \*nothing \*to reduce gun crime. I would rather have the crime rate stay right where it is than give up any of my rights. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/28 "2008-12-07T02:57:47Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > Maybe a Brit Doper could help me out here. As I understand it, gun ownership there is nearly impossible. Yet crime continues, with the criminals either armed with guns, or the victims with no way to defend themselves against a bigger guy with a knife or a blunt object or whatever. As a broad generalization, crime levels in the UK are similar to the US, except for murder and rape, which are much higher in the US. And most murders are with guns (in the US). There is little gun-related crime in the UK and very few gun murders - about 70 per year. Guns have not been used for self-defence in the UK for a long time. To get a firearms certificate, you have to give a good reason. “self defence” has not been a valid reason since 1946 (I think - too lazy to check the exact date). So actual gun legislation over the last 50 years or so has not effect on whether the populace can protect itself. People have not used guns to protect themselves for a long time. Hence you can look at charts of crime and gun crime and note that the hand-gun ban after Dunblane had zero effect on regular crime. That is not at all surprising: the hand-gun ban removed about 160,000 guns from a population of about 60 million. It also removed less than 10% of the guns in circulation - there are about 2 million shotguns and rifles (mostly shotguns). ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/29 "2008-12-07T03:49:09Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > I posited that if we get rid of handguns, or somehow outlawed them, the handguns would (eventually) end up out of the hands of the criminals. People opposed it, and I added as a stipulation that people could get a handgun, but they’d have to have a permit to do so. (I’m starting to lean against that idea. I think the spirit of this is to make handguns harder to get overall and impossible to get for shady folks.) You perception is flawed in thinking criminals are going down to the local sporting goods or other firearm dealer and purchasing their handguns. Hasn’t it been illegal to posses a handgun in Washington DC since 1976? Care to go out for a late night stroll around the block in DC? ---
**Author:** ![Caveat\_lector\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@Caveat\_lector\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caveat_lector_1)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/30 "2008-12-07T03:53:41Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > these are nothing more than busybody-feel-good legislations which have no impact on firearm crime, if Greg Gangbanger wants to expend thirty rounds of 9mm in a driveby, having three ten-round mags is not going to be a major handicap, and when Greg Gangbanger is caught by the police, he should be rightly put away for a very long time, if anyone is killed in said drive-by, automatic life imprisonment, no possibility of parole, no appeals, nothing, lock him up, and throw away the key This is a minor thing, but I think removing the possibility of appeals is not a good idea. Mistakes are made and police and prosecutors, even if we assume 100% good intentions, screw up so removing the chance to appeal increases the possibility of putting an innocent person in jail. > [@Algher](#): > > Increase the “cost” violent crime: > When background checks are run and the person is found to not be eligible to own a firearm - follow-up! The Brady Center claims that 300 bad people a day are prevented from purchasing a firearm - therefore there MUST be 300 arrest a day. Is it really illegal to _attempt_ to purchase a firearm if you are not eligible? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/31 "2008-12-07T07:30:18Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > The thread about guns killing people has been hijacked enough, and I know that there have been threads on this topic in the past, but how can we reduce gun crime in America? ? Why not _how can we reduce_ violent _crime in America_? Why is being shot with a gun so much more horrible than being hacked to death with a machete, or tortured to death in a basement, or burned to death by having gasoline poured over you? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/32 "2008-12-07T17:27:52Z")
> [@Caveat\_lector\_1](#): > > This is a minor thing, but I think removing the possibility of appeals is not a good idea. Mistakes are made and police and prosecutors, even if we assume 100% good intentions, screw up so removing the chance to appeal increases the possibility of putting an innocent person in jail. > > Is it really illegal to _attempt_ to purchase a firearm if you are not eligible? In California it is a misdemeanor to file a false application (one question on the application is whether you are eligible). Once the firearm is in your possession it is another crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/33 "2008-12-07T20:46:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is being shot with a gun so much more horrible than being hacked to death with a machete, or tortured to death in a basement, or burned to death by having gasoline poured over you? Because it is _easier_ for gun-control activists to go without guns than it is to go without machetes, gasoline, or all the everyday objects that are easily converted into instruments of torture. Then they get to pat themselves on the back and say they’re saving lives, while thousands of people are smashed to bits in car wrecks every day. “But cars aren’t designed to kill people!” they say, even though automobiles are by far the most dangerous objects in a modern human’s possession. What the hell. I guess if they have no use for a potentially dangerous tool, it is high time to ban it, but if it conveniences them personally, it is a necessary evil. > [@FoisGrasIsEvil](#): > > I am in favor of legalizing marijuana, but not drugs like coke, speed and heroin. They are too dangerous. Who the hell are you to decide what is too dangerous for me? And are you saying gun violence is okay as long as it only involves drug addicts, because it is better for poor addicts in the ghetto to be victims of gun crime than for your kids to be legally tempted to ruin their afternoon snorting coke? Preventing drug addicts from getting shot is better than preventing them from willfully endangering themselves with their chemical hobby if you ask me. But what do I know? _You_ are the benevolent nanny looking out for my best interests, after all. As to the OP, I suggest spending a little less taxpayer money on [insert your pet government waste project here] and a little more on police education, recruitment, equipment and salary. And hey, why don’t we pay teachers more, too? I’m of the opinion that crime is exacerbated by poverty, which is exacerbated by a poor or limited education. We’ll never eliminate gun crime, but we can lower it. I’m as libertarian as the next guy, but I can always get on board with spending tax money on cops and teachers. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/34 "2008-12-07T21:27:38Z")
I am for legalizing and taxing all drugs. You can not win through prohibition,that is clear. We could tax them and actually have a bunch of new jobs and a bigger tax base. About now that sounds real good with a depression coming on. Illegal drugs corrupt the police and judges. They waste money imprisoning people who need rehab . They help finance the Taliban and the Afghan and Pakistani insurgencies. They prop up and enrich dictators and corrupt nation states. It just does not work. Our streets would be much safer if an expensive addiction did not require stealing money to finance. As long as they are profitable ,turf wars will be fought killing innocent bystanders. It is a waste . ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/35 "2008-12-07T22:00:50Z")
Exactly right on all counts, **gonzomax**. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/36 "2008-12-07T22:17:23Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > Maybe a Brit Doper could help me out here. As I understand it, gun ownership there is nearly impossible. Yet crime continues, with the criminals either armed with guns, or the victims with no way to defend themselves against a bigger guy with a knife or a blunt object or whatever. Not only are you not allowed a gun to defend your home with, but the regular police are not armed either. This is a very popular policy. Contrary to your unsupported statement above, (as amarone also posted) this leads to less murders and rapes, far less gun crime and massively less school shootings. The logical conclusion is not that an unarmed victim is at greater risk, but that an armed criminal is far more dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/37 "2008-12-07T23:04:20Z")
How common are home invasions and instances of a homeowner being prosecuted more harshly than the criminals that broke into his house? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/38 "2008-12-07T23:34:51Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > How common are home invasions and instances of a homeowner being prosecuted more harshly than the criminals that broke into his house? If this is also addressed to Brits, and by “home invasion” you mean entry to the home by criminals while the owners are still present - leading to some sort of incident, the answer is “very rare”. Homeowners being prosecuted is also very rare, such that when it does happen it makes national news. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/39 "2008-12-08T06:33:54Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The logical conclusion is not that an unarmed victim is at greater risk, but that an armed criminal is far more dangerous. QED? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885/40 "2008-12-08T06:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Why is being shot with a gun so much more horrible than being hacked to death with a machete, or tortured to death in a basement, or burned to death by having gasoline poured over you? Because someone’s much more likely to attempt to shoot me with a gun than to attempt any of those things, and if someone does attempt those other things, I have a much greater chance of survival than with the gun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-curtail-gun-crime/475885.md?page=3)