Ways you were more likely to die than by terrorism in 2001

[mswas]

@Bryan Ekers

It’s not irrational in and of itself to take steps, even violent steps, to stop terrorists though I’ll admit the current strategy may be lacking.

Sure, I am all for treating it as a criminal issue and not a military one. The Israelis have been killing terrorists for years without Tomahawks.

Actually, the whole Iraq thing more likely involves a long-term strategy involving oil and China and trying to guide mid-to-late 21st-century global economics. Whatever opinions one might have of Bush, he has many many smart people guiding and advising him.

The thing is I don’t think I am part of his tribe. He is playing America for his own ends, and I think he’s destroying the country that I love. Sure he wants to guide 21st century global economics but I think as a corporate fascist not as an American. It’s about where his allegiances are, and I don’t feel that he’s allied with me. I don’t think Bush is dumb, he’s a consummate actor, and that’s his role. Anyway, when I think of Bush I think of his as a figurehead representing the apparatus of his administration more than as a single man, just like Hitler. Mind you I am not comparing him to Hitler morally, I am saying that he was a figurehead representing an organization of brilliant people in a similar fashion.

Well… okay. Personally, I think most of the people here already knew this.

They might have known it intellectually, but they are still operating on the fear paradigm where all sorts of irrational acts are considered justified. I just wanted to remind them that if they want to be afraid of dying there are a lot of things more likely to kill them that they are straight up ignoring. Heart Disease is like the number one killer in America, and I bet a lot of people sit their chowing down their steak or hamburger while decrying the evil terrorists. Basically the war on abstract concepts is insane. The problem with America isn’t Drugs, it’s not Terrorism, it’s our lack of connection to one another. We are terrified because there are strangers living in the apartment next door, at the 7/11 down the street, at the mall, they’re everywhere. We buy too much crap to fulfill the lack of substance in our lives, but all that crap doesn’t help us, but we fight more wars to justify our bread and circuses. It used to be that bread and circuses were used to justify wars. The Spectacle has outpaced the substance and everyone is caught up in the glamer.

I just wanted to remind people that there are real steps they can take in their lives to increase their lifespan that doesn’t involve multimillion dollar killing machines.

Erek

[E-Sabbath]

Personally, I’ve grown up knowing that there was a pretty damn good chance that I’d die in an untimely fashion someday. Near certainty of it, really. I’m a New Yorker. I live a bit upstate, but I’ve been working in the City since I was ten, on and off.

Until 1989, I was sure that one day, the bombs would fly, and I wouldn’t be around after that. If I was lucky. If I was home, the odds are pretty strong I’d be in the ‘dies in a week’ zone.

In '93, they tried to blow up the World Trade. In '01 they succeeded. I did all I could do to help, and you have to remember, we didn’t know if there was a second wave. After all, it’s a traditional tactic. Blow a bomb, wait half an hour, blow a second to kill the responders.
(I ferried some doctors into the city. All I could do… but it was something.)

I know that any day, they could blow up one of the bridges I cross with a truck full of ANFO.
I know that if there is ever a nuclear bomb on a boat, dirty or traditional, I will be there as it goes off.

I live with that. Do you, Erek? Can you? Day after day. Year after year. I’m not scared. I’m just aware. It’s all but certain it will happen again, someday. I work in the greatest city in the world, and we are a target for those who hate freedom.

And yes, it is freedom they hate, the freedom to be different, the ability to choose to go one way or another. They want all mankind to bow to their rules.

I live here, I work here, to say that I disagree. It’s not much, but it’s all I can do.
Am I more likely to be hit by a car than killed by terrorism? Certainly. I work on the Boulevard of Death. (Not a made up name. Google it.) But I am sure that it will affect my life again.

And unlike the poor schlub who’s cutting the light… the terrorist is evil. I will not insist that cars be banned. But terror?

I will not bow to terror. I will never bow to terror. That’s all I can do. But, by God, that is enough!

[mswas]

Umm, I live in Brooklyn and I am currently sitting on the Upper West Side. I’m in the “Dies instantaneously” zone. So yeah, I think I can deal with it day after day.

They don’t hate us for our freedom, except the freedom to bomb the crap out of them whenever we want, the freedom to support dictatorships and sell weapons to every side in a war so that no one over there ever wins but we make a tidy profit over here.

If you’ll recall, we’ve been around for a few hundred years, and up until recently they weren’t attacking us. Of course they hate us for our freedom though.

Get real. Your fascination with being a victim is not compelling, and you just traded one boogeyman (Communists) for another (Terrorists).

[Bryan_Ekers]

@mswas

He is playing America for his own ends

Isn’t that true of any President? They all have goals and agendas and backers who want a return on their campaign contributions.

and I think he’s destroying the country that I love.

Oh, I think the United States will survive Bush43.

They might have known it intellectually, but they are still operating on the fear paradigm where all sorts of irrational acts are considered justified. I just wanted to remind them that if they want to be afraid of dying there are a lot of things more likely to kill them that they are straight up ignoring. Heart Disease is like the number one killer in America, and I bet a lot of people sit their chowing down their steak or hamburger while decrying the evil terrorists. Basically the war on abstract concepts is insane.

I was talking about the people on this board, not some nameless faceless panicky sea of humanity. By and large, they seem like a pretty rational bunch to me, not given to insanity.

The problem with America isn’t Drugs, it’s not Terrorism, it’s our lack of connection to one another.

Well, let’s join hands around the campfire, then.

We are terrified because there are strangers living in the apartment next door, at the 7/11 down the street, at the mall, they’re everywhere.

Speak for yourself, bub. I ain’t terrified o’ nobody.

Of course, I’m Canadian. The world likes us.

I just wanted to remind people that there are real steps they can take in their lives to increase their lifespan that doesn’t involve multimillion dollar killing machines.

Ummm… thanks?

[mswas]

@Bryan Ekers

Isn’t that true of any President? They all have goals and agendas and backers who want a return on their campaign contributions.

But it’s about WHO those people are, and what their agendas are. Halliburton makes me think of “The Company” from Aliens.

Oh, I think the United States will survive Bush43.

As a Nation-state yes, as the land of liberty, I’m not certain. Hell we still haven’t recovered from Nixon, or even Lincoln for that matter.

I was talking about the people on this board, not some nameless faceless panicky sea of humanity. By and large, they seem like a pretty rational bunch to me, not given to insanity.

I don’t think that this board is any more rational than your average mall to be honest.

Well, let’s join hands around the campfire, then.

Lets ;p

Speak for yourself, bub. I ain’t terrified o’ nobody.

Of course, I’m Canadian. The world likes us.

Yeah, you guys are lucky, you get the best of America without all the baggage.

Ummm… thanks?

Sure no problem.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@mswas

Hell we still haven’t recovered from Nixon, or even Lincoln for that matter.

What sort of utopia do you think would exist in place of the current U.S. had Nixon and Lincoln not existed?

Yeah, you guys are lucky, you get the best of America without all the baggage.

Personally, I like to think of the U.S. as a malfunctioning Canada, rather than Canada as an idealized U.S.

[E-Sabbath]

I think they do hate us for our freedom. They hate us because we have the choice to not behave as they do. If we followed their ways, specifically, they would not hate us.
As far as attacking us? Terrorists have been attacking the US, on and off, for a long time. Harper’s Ferry. McKinley. Heck, Lincoln. Just because they’re home grown doesn’t make them any less people who use terror. John Allen Muhammad, anyone? (Washington Sniper)

Generally, it’s for one of two reasons. Either people don’t behave the way the terrorist thinks they should, or for simple insane sadism.
But the first type, I think ‘hating freedom’ is a good description.

As far as handling it? I’m glad you can handle it, Erek. Never said you couldn’t. I’m just saying that I’ve been affected by terrorists more than I have been mugged. I was only mugged successfully once. Terrorists have affected my lifestyle a lot more than that. And the odds are pretty strong I’m going to be hit again. Now, the probability? Well, I can’t calculate that, because it changes frequently, but I was eight stories above Times Square, babysitting servers, in 2000, and they stopped a plot then. If they had decided to ‘leave them alone’, I might be dead now.

Or not. Just don’t know. Now that doesn’t mean I want to tolerate what Bush wants, but, Erek, I’m a load more likely to be affected than someone in Podunk or Hicksville. Well, maybe not Hicksville, that’s just upstate a bit.

So… can you revise your statistics for New York City, specifically, and tell me how much more likely it is, would you? Thanks.

[mswas]

@Bryan Ekers

What sort of utopia do you think would exist in place of the current U.S. had Nixon and Lincoln not existed?

I never said Utopia. However, without Lincoln we’d have states rights. The abolition of states rights when Lincoln violated the law by saying that states could not secede from the Union, and then press-ganged people into military service in order to carry out his violation of the law in order to force the raw material producing states to remain within the union has been a constant downhill assault on the constitution. So we’d still have a relevant constitution without Lincoln. Utopia maybe not, but at least we’d still be what we were meant to be, and the North and South would be seperate countries but we’d probably be still economically linked. Without Nixon the drug war would not be what it is today. Nixon is the godfather of what has become the Neo-Conservative movement. It was under Nixon that people like Bush Sr, Rumsfeld and Cheney were cutting their teeth. These two administrations were instrumental in creating the corporatist state that America has become, both flouted the law in such a way that has engendered the current level of corruption that we take as the status quo.

Personally, I like to think of the U.S. as a malfunctioning Canada, rather than Canada as an idealized U.S.

I see Canada as the spoiled little brother who gets all the perks without taking any of the responsibility for their status. I see Canada as being a fictional Nation. Basically they are just another state in the union but they have maintained states rights, but they still go along for the most part with the foreign policy of the anglosphere while remaining removed enough that they can act haughty and pretend like they aren’t a part of the socio-economic Imperialist state. Canada’s history and America’s pretty much run in tandem, they both committed genocide against their natives, both have continued a policy of racism against those natives that has continued up until the last few years. I hear in Alberta that the “Chugs” are not allowed to by standard household products in stores off of the reservation because the proprietors are afraid they’ll use it to get high. This is of course hearsay from my friends who live in Calgary, Edmonton and Red Deer, so I haven’t verified it for myself. I see Canada sending troops along with the Americans and the Brits in most foreign engagements.

[mswas]

@E-Sabbath

I think they do hate us for our freedom. They hate us because we have the choice to not behave as they do. If we followed their ways, specifically, they would not hate us.
As far as attacking us? Terrorists have been attacking the US, on and off, for a long time. Harper’s Ferry. McKinley. Heck, Lincoln. Just because they’re home grown doesn’t make them any less people who use terror. John Allen Muhammad, anyone? (Washington Sniper)

They have a mild distaste for us because of our freedom. If we weren’t meddling over there they’d be happily killing each other and leaving us alone.

Terrorist is a propagandistic perjorative used by politicians to label anyone who violently opposes the status quo, and dismisses the relevance of the status quo’s violence as though it doesn’t factor in.

Generally, it’s for one of two reasons. Either people don’t behave the way the terrorist thinks they should, or for simple insane sadism.
But the first type, I think ‘hating freedom’ is a good description.

Well that’s one overly simplistic way of putting it.

As far as handling it? I’m glad you can handle it, Erek. Never said you couldn’t. I’m just saying that I’ve been affected by terrorists more than I have been mugged. I was only mugged successfully once. Terrorists have affected my lifestyle a lot more than that. And the odds are pretty strong I’m going to be hit again. Now, the probability? Well, I can’t calculate that, because it changes frequently, but I was eight stories above Times Square, babysitting servers, in 2000, and they stopped a plot then. If they had decided to ‘leave them alone’, I might be dead now.

Again you seem to not be paying attention to our constanty destabilization of the region as a standard part of cold war policy. You make it seem like they aer just mindless killers that have no legitimate gripes with us. How exactly do you expect them to deal with our constant killing of their people?

Or not. Just don’t know. Now that doesn’t mean I want to tolerate what Bush wants, but, Erek, I’m a load more likely to be affected than someone in Podunk or Hicksville. Well, maybe not Hicksville, that’s just upstate a bit.

Sure I agree, you are more likely to be affected than someone in Hicksville (There’s one in Long Island). However, I think that the ‘war on terror’ is a ‘war in error’ we are reacting way too harshly to the problem, and it ignores the injustice that we really have done over there.

So… can you revise your statistics for New York City, specifically, and tell me how much more likely it is, would you? Thanks.

What?

[Steve_MB]

@E-Sabbath

I think they do hate us for our freedom. They hate us because we have the choice to not behave as they do. If we followed their ways, specifically, they would not hate us.

More precisely, they (at least the leader types, not the cannon fodder) realize that, even in the absence of direct political intervention, Western culture sets an example that they can’t compete with and certainly can’t attempt to emulate without giving up their version of Islam.

[E-Sabbath]

@mswas

They have a mild distaste for us because of our freedom. If we weren’t meddling over there they’d be happily killing each other and leaving us alone.

Again you seem to not be paying attention to our constanty destabilization of the region as a standard part of cold war policy. You make it seem like they aer just mindless killers that have no legitimate gripes with us. How exactly do you expect them to deal with our constant killing of their people?

What?

Actually, the fun thing is that they don’t like our second or third hand effect, either. Satellite TV, neighboring nations, and so on. We don’t have to be near them in order to disturb them. In fact, they come to ‘our’ countries, and get offended there.

It’s not that I’m paying attention, it’s that I’m saying that it’s a bit of a freaking huge mess. You find a way to solve it all, go for it. Right now, they’ve got governments, fairly legit ones. This is a governmental job, not a job for random organized whackjobs. If the NRA wandered around shooting anti-gun people, that’s what we’d have here. These are not legitimate governments, just special interest groups. (Palestine excepted)

The original point for debate, Erek, was how much less likely we were to die from terrorism than from X, Y, and Z. I want statistics considering our mutual location, as you can clearly agree that as someone who works in NYC is considerably more at risk than someone who doesn’t.

[XT]

People are really really bad at risk analysis. Thats why they fear getting on a plane while risking death at a much higher percentage by driving to the air port. People have a fear of being out of control, and also a fear of death by exotic means and tend to disreguard risks from ordanary things (cigarette smoking, heart disease, even stuff like home repairs, etc). Its probably human nature and I’m sure someone on this board has an interesting theory as to why most folks (all?) are wired this way.

However, we ARE wired that way so its kind of futile to rail against it. As a mass, we will always fear things like terrorist attacks and the like while disreguarding things that are more probable. We’ll always wring our hands when some disaster strikes like the tsunami or the hurricane in New Orleans, wailing about what we SHOULD have done (and spending loads on ‘fixing’ things so it doesn’t happen again…until some other disaster does that we can rinse and repeat our worries on).

Folks are just really really bad at risk analysis…

-XT

[E-Sabbath]

(Oh, yes. I don’t know why I always get Hicksville mentally located in Dutchess. One of those things you learn wrongly when you’re kneehigh and never quite burn out of your head)

[mswas]

@E-Sabbath

Actually, the fun thing is that they don’t like our second or third hand effect, either. Satellite TV, neighboring nations, and so on. We don’t have to be near them in order to disturb them. In fact, they come to ‘our’ countries, and get offended there.

Right, but there is a difference between pointing at the disgusting infidels across the pond and flying airplanes into their buildings. Do you think they’d be attacking us if we were not fighting wars within their borders?

It’s not that I’m paying attention, it’s that I’m saying that it’s a bit of a freaking huge mess. You find a way to solve it all, go for it. Right now, they’ve got governments, fairly legit ones. This is a governmental job, not a job for random organized whackjobs. If the NRA wandered around shooting anti-gun people, that’s what we’d have here. These are not legitimate governments, just special interest groups. (Palestine excepted)

But a lot of their governments we have helped to put into power toppling democratic governments in order to install despots that are opposed to communism. I believe that in this day and age we are reaping what we have sown.

The original point for debate, Erek, was how much less likely we were to die from terrorism than from X, Y, and Z. I want statistics considering our mutual location, as you can clearly agree that as someone who works in NYC is considerably more at risk than someone who doesn’t.

The best example would be murder rates in NY. The murder rate from 1985-1995 was greater than from 1995-2005 even including the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=169

My point in this has been not to say that terrorism isn’t a problem, but that maybe it’s not a problem that warrants the amount of attention we have been giving it, after all the point of terrorism is not to kill us, it is to make us afraid of being killed. So by giving the war on terror so much of our attention we have done exactly what the terrorists wanted us to, live in fear.

Erek