# We are in a Propaganda War against Iraq ...and we are LOSING! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946 "2003-03-29T01:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/21 "2003-03-29T12:14:54Z")
I think what surprises me most is that, in this era of ‘managed’ media and ‘official lines’, the Bush administration, yet again (like with 9/11 sympathy), squandered what advantages it had. It seems rudderless on the _absolutely crucial_ issue of winning hearts and minds and, instead, concentrates on banality, belligerence and transparent misinformation. Utterly absurd - for goodness sake, what is their opinion of the watching audience ? I honestly believed there was _very significant_ advantage to be had - and that long-term damage within the Arab Muslim world could be contained - as a result of OBL’s and the Islamic Conferences’ declaration that Saddam was a “ …… bad Muslim” - that was a gift, the opportunity from above to distinguish the oppressive regime from the general population _as stated by Islamic leaders_. But no ……where the fuck is the news management, no mention of that, period, let alone shouted from the roof tops. Repeatedly. And from that Camp David press conference, people remember that comical moment when Bush was offering to get a list of all the coalition partners … WTF. But did Bush even mention Palestine – the one thing that he could have talked and talked about in order to assuage Arab opinion, or at least dampen down the radical Islamic fires. And I have no idea whether he did or didn’t – he made zero impression aside from his usual semi-literate comical tough guy act. Yet, from the same conference, I clearly recall Blair repeatedly talking again and often about the “Middle East road map”. Now, that might be accurate or it may be the impression I have, but the fact is Bush made no impression - Blair even had to talk it up _for_ Bush (by saying he was the first president to acknowledge … yada yada…). For goodness sake, if you can’t, as the US president, help yourself … Palestine _is the one thing_ Bush could have talked and talked about and left an impression that would, maybe, help assuage the Muslim world … damn… (I guess we all know it’s probably nonsense (as it was with Bush’s father and for which the Arab world is still resentful) but at least the man could _try_ to give the listening Arab world what they want to hear. Yet he doesn’t. Even. Try.) What else … I don’t know where to start … how about no one mentions the trust fund the oil money is supposed to go into in order to administer Iraq after the war yet the whole damn world knows about the award to Halliburton of non-tendered contracts … and it just goes on and on and on … utter fucking incompetence diplomatically, in terms of news management, image, presentation, emphasis … And then all this nonsense about “Well that speech in Florida the other day was for domestic consumption …” Ain’t no such thing as “domestic consumption” any more - there are more and more 24/7 news stations from across the world hanging on every word. Yet Bush continues to address the US ‘market’ in jingoistic terms as if no one else is watching … I guess the main point I’m making is that the Arab world - for the first time - has access to 24/7 news coverage from at least three Arab teevee stations. They no longer rely on CNN for information and \*no one \* in this US administration seems to have taken on board that rather significant factor, or is it they still don’t care … God knows … but if the White House doesn’t know what it’s doing, I have no idea how the rest are supposed to be on message. … I’ve had enough, I’m going down the bloody pub. ---
**Author:** ![Calder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Calder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calder)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/22 "2003-03-29T12:45:42Z")
My main problem with the media is that most of the reporters deliberately exagerate how Bad something is to make their story seem more importain. My other main complaint is that the it seems like most of these people became reporters because they were too stupid to get a real job where you actually have to do/know something. I can’t count how many times I have seen an embedded reporter say something to the effect of “We have been EXTREAMLY heavily engaged in a very bloody battle for several hours with an Iraqi division.” The host will then ask how many coalition causualties there have been and the answer is often None and 0 wounded. HELLO anyone home in that empty head of yours. If there aren’t any causualties then you are DEFINATELY not heavily engaged and NOT in a bloody battle and you sure as hell aren’t facing a full division. At worst your taking panic fire from at most 1 or 2 squads of men because if it was any more than that then pure blind luck would enable them to hit some coalition troops. I have seen this happen on every network. In a lot of ways it reminds me of the coverage in afganistan before the taliban fell. The media ran around like chicken little back then saying that there was no way the taliban could be kicked out in less than a year.-In reality it took about a month. ---
**Author:** ![Calder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Calder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calder)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/23 "2003-03-29T12:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*When your streets are full of heavily armed foreigners, expressing your heartfelt joy at the thier presence comes under the heading of a real good idea. Case in point: when the Germans entered the Ukraine in WWII, they were welcomed with open arms by the people, glad to be freed from Stalin. Didn’t last. > \*\* That really isn’t a valid comparison. Germany pretty much did everything in their power to make the Slavic people hate them. Germany even hunted down and killed people who were trying to join the germany army in fighting against Stalin. Looking at it historically however I would agree with you that most of the time an invading army isn’t looked on well even when the people hate their leader. There have certainly been exceptions where the invading army was welcomed but they are definately in the minority. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/24 "2003-03-29T14:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*“Yes”, responded an English Gentleman in Ireland, “Read this”… > (Followed by some Straight Dope comments by a man with the BBC) \*\* This factual error indicates that you didn’t read it, did you? You skimmed the first post, and didn’t read the thread about the dangerous, visceral anger in the Arab world at the moment, threatening to boil over into overthrowing pro-western governments. > [@](#): > > **Well sure they hate us. But Hey! Not as much as the BBC.** :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > ]_Originally posted by London\_Calling_ > **… I’ve had enough, I’m going down the bloody pub.** Bit early, in the day for festivities, isn’t it sir? [Channelling Denis Thatcher] It’s never too early for a gin and tonic. [/Channelling Denis Thatcher] ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/25 "2003-03-29T14:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > When Iraq has been liberated, you’ll see the Iraqis (who haven’t been killed by Saddam or our troops) celebrating their liberation. When they are dancing on the streets of Baghdad, that will be propaganda aplenty. JMHO. Yes, but tell me why the Shiite leaders in Basra are calling upon the people to fight the “children of Satan” (coalition soldiers). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > I ask again: “You want to leave Saddam in power because you think we are losing the propaganda war?” How are these two related to each other? ---
**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/26 "2003-03-29T14:50:28Z")
elucidator, “As to leaving Saddam in power it comes down to a question of whether or not that is our call to make. Who died and made us God?” You didn’t answer my question. I can understand why you didn’t. I’ll answer yours: (1)dying would not make anyone God, for He is eternal and does not depend on “us,” (you must admit, that’s a lame question you asked), and (2)leaving Saddam in power is very much “our call to make,” as you will see in the coming weeks. I realize my post got off of the topic. Since others strayed, I guess I can also stray. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/27 "2003-03-29T15:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*“We are in a propaganda war with Iraq, and…” Some think we are losing. I disagree. When Iraq has been liberated, you’ll see the Iraqis (who haven’t been killed by Saddam or our troops) celebrating their liberation. When they are dancing on the streets of Baghdad, that will be propaganda aplenty. JMHO. > > \*\* **TP** , you seem to have a very high opinion of the power of propaganda to control people’s minds, and perhaps you are right. But consider. Even if it’s true that US propaganda, combined with a benign nation-building regime convinces the Iraqis that the Americans were okay after all, why should anyone else in the Arab world agree? After all, they have their own “propaganda.” Remember that the 9/11 terrorists were not from Iraq but largely from Saudi Arabia (where Saudi propaganda does not seem to be having a uniform impact on all the young people, to say the least). Remember that the Palestinian/Israeli situation is a constant grievance in this region (where Israeli propaganda is doing nothing to persuade anyone, except perhaps some Israelis, that their policy will lead to a solution of some kind). Remember that the Islamic nationalists in Pakistan, a country with nuclear weapons, are extremely upset by all of this, and already on the verge of hostilities with the Hindu nationalists in India, another country with nuclear weapons. What exactly do you think US propaganda will do if these countries continue to believe that war was unjust, and that the US’s nation-building efforts amount to an occupation or a new wave of imperialism? Can we take away their television stations to? And if somehow we did, doo you think they’d just sit back and watch _Survior_ like some of us do? And that reminds me that you don’t seem to consider that you yourself may be under the grips of propaganda. There is plenty of propaganda being issued from the Bush administration and, by and large, the US television media tend to reproduce it, undigested, in the form of news and news analysis. Radio broadcasting behemoths in this country have organized pro-war rallies in local communities. Fox News takes whatever the Bush administration says and ties it up with a bow. Is it possible that you are not the most informed judge of how the rest of the world perceives the United States? _"I ask again: “You want to leave Saddam in power because you think we are losing the propaganda war?”’_ I would have preferred that we not do this this way in the first place. In fact, I would have preferred that we heeded your advice a few weeks ago when we still had a chance to work out compromises with our key allies on the UN Security Council. Now that that the opportunity is gone, I really can’t say. Although I hate war on these terms, I don’t think there is any realistic chance that it will simply cease. I have no liking for Saddam, and would be happy to see him go with a minimum of injury to US/UK soldiers and the Iraqi people. I also believe that the US will attempt, perhaps is already attempting, to get Iraqi TV off the air (it’s being urged by almost everyone at this point). Your TV point aside, I’m not really sure what you’re saying should occur. Propaganda alone is not enough to win “hearts and minds.” If it were, Saddam himself would be beloved by his people. It may not be possible to win this propaganda war unless we also do the right thing; and so far, I believe, we have not done so, howevermuch some may believe that. ---
**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/28 "2003-03-29T16:05:48Z")
Thanks for you opinion. I respect it. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/29 "2003-03-29T16:18:35Z")
On a related note, I ran across an article this morning on the very same issue from an Arab perspective. The article is written by Faisal Bodi, a British Islamic journalist. The byline of the article references _The Guardian_, but the writer notes that he is currently working the Internet arm of al-Jazeera. > [@](#): > > _[Al-Jazeera — a Threat to Western Media](http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24444) 3/29/03_ > I do not mean to brag — people are turning to us simply because the Western media coverage has been so poor. > … > By reporting propaganda as fact, the mainstream media had simply mirrored the Blair/Bush fantasy that the people who have been starved by UN sanctions and deformed by depleted uranium since 1991 will greet them as saviors. > … > There is also a marked difference when reporting the anger the invasion has unleashed on the Muslim street. The view from here is that any vestige of goodwill toward the US has evaporated with this latest aggression, and that Britain has now joined the US and Israel as a target of this rage. > … > It’s too early for me to say when, or indeed if, I will return to my homeland. So far this war has progressed according to a near worst-case scenario. Iraqis have not turned against their tormentor. The southern Shiites regard the invasion force as the greater Satan. I fear there remains much work to be done. This is one of those rare areas of agreement - the US coalition is losing the propaganda war. Hopefully that is all they lose. But in some sense, we could win the battle by deposing Saddam, and still lose the war. How do you define success in this adventure? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/30 "2003-03-29T16:21:11Z")
Interesting that he notes the “depleted uranium” issue, which I have heard as both undeniable fact and sheer propaganda. Anybody got any facts? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/31 "2003-03-29T18:27:56Z")
There are no peer-reviewed studies that show any significant health effects from depleted uranium. It IS a heavy metal like lead or mercury, so you don’t want to eat it. It’s very mildly radioactive (much less so than natural uranium ore), but no studies have shown any increases in cancer due to DU in Gulf veterans. If there were serious health effects, it certainly would not be among the population of Iraq. It would be among the Gulf veterans who handle DU rounds all the time, and among the people hit by fragments of DU rounds. Here’s a summary of DU research from the [Federation of American Scientists](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/du/mr1018.7.chap3.html). Given that so far there has been no proven health effects from DU, except very mild ones in people who still have embedded fragments in their bodies, it’s crazy to suggest that there could be widespread health effects among the citizens of Iraq from environmental exposure. And the bald-faced claim that people have been ‘deformed’ by depleted uranium should instantly discredit al-Jazeera has a reasonable news source. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/32 "2003-03-29T18:37:56Z")
**Sam** , I may be missing it, but my read is that the al Jazeera article was referring to that episode as the propaganda of the Bush/Blair fantasy. I think you just agreed with al Jazeera. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/33 "2003-03-29T19:00:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*Thanks for you opinion. I respect it. \*\* Thanks very much for your courtesy and open-mindedness, **Thought**. And welcome to the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/34 "2003-03-29T19:06:37Z")
**AZCowboy:** No, you’re misreading it. They’re saying that it’s a fantasy that the Bush adminstration should expect people to welcome the U.S., BECAUSE the people have been starved by sanctions and deformed by depleted uranium. They are stating that as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/35 "2003-03-29T20:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*I read it. It didn’t impress me. “We are in a propaganda war with Iraq, and…” Some think we are losing. I disagree. When Iraq has been liberated, you’ll see the Iraqis (who haven’t been killed by Saddam or our troops) celebrating their liberation. When they are dancing on the streets of Baghdad, that will be propaganda aplenty. JMHO. > \*\* Given the thread you claim to have read, I fail to see how you can still believe that the kind of images you cite above could possibly erase the ill will springing up like weeds all over the Arab world, especially among the young people who are undoubtedly swelling Al-Qaeda ranks right now… How can Bush NOT see this? Or does he see it, but believe that his plans for the rest of the war and reconstruction will balance it all out? I hope he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/36 "2003-03-29T21:21:32Z")
Well, **Sam** , upon rereading it a few times, I will grant you that it is open for interpretation. Saying that they are stating it as fact is an overstatement, however. The point of that sentence, supported by the “fact” that you dispute, is the same assertion that has been taken as a given in this thread - that the US is losing the propaganda war. So unless you want to refute the conclusion (which you haven’t attempted), your dispute doesn’t change the argument. > [@](#): > > _ **Sam Stone** wrote:_ > And the bald-faced claim that people have been ‘deformed’ by depleted uranium should instantly discredit al-Jazeera has a reasonable news source. Now if that is the standard, **if** a single factual error in an editorial discredits the entire organization, I am unaware of any western news source that can withstand credibility in your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/37 "2003-03-29T21:33:31Z")
It seems that **“…the people who have been…deformed by depleted uranium since 1991…”** is not the same as **"widespread health effects among the citizens of Iraq from environmental exposure."** The first quote could be a reference to **"the people hit by fragments of DU rounds"** YMMV ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/38 "2003-03-29T22:02:40Z")
X~Slayer: Losing the propaganda war? First of all, there’s something creepy about starting an impassionate and worried debate about “we’re losing the propaganda war” furthermore… There is something completely fucked up if, after seeing AlJazeera video of mangled children, all you can conlude is : “we’re losing the propaganda war” I’d say you lost something far more valuable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/39 "2003-03-29T22:05:12Z")
Montevideo, Uruguay, eh? That anywhere near _France?_ ---
**Author:** ![Lost\_Goat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@Lost\_Goat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lost_Goat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946/40 "2003-03-29T22:32:37Z")
**ChaosGod:** That is unfair. When did **X~Slayer** say “My heart rejoiced at the sight of those dead Iraqi children, but we’re losing the propaganda war!” She has a valid concern. She could have said “We are failing to counter the evil distorted Iraqi lies with the light of Truth” - but she is using a more honest term. Why flame her for it? Now for my personal, unique viewpoint: I agree with what everyone is saying in this thread. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-propaganda-war-against-iraq-and-we-are-losing/164946.md?page=3)