# We are struggling together **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423 "2015-12-26T21:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/181 "2016-01-09T02:18:34Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > All human beings are endowed with natural rights, inalienable, “life, liberty, and property.” The unborn child has the right to life equally as much as you or I. Who are these feminist slime to say that a child doesn’t have that right? It is NOT their body, and it is NOT their property. It is the body of another person entirely. This is philosophically incoherent given that you’re opposed to welfare. What distinguishes one kind of parasitism from another? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/182 "2016-01-09T02:23:34Z")
This is all very interesting, but I still want to know exactly what this “welfare state” is, because I do suspect that chimera is the source of the OP’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawaiianBeachBoy_1959)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/183 "2016-01-09T02:28:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So you’re one of those libertarians who only think rights matter when you personally agree with them, then. No, it’s called the Non-Aggression Principle. The idea is that you cannot use force against people without a clear justification. (Ex: Mugging a guy is wrong. Shooting the aforementioned mugger is not. Get it?) Now, what aggression has an unborn child committed? Answer: Zero. Therefore, under a word-for-word interpretation of the NAP, abortion is morally unjustified in that aborting said child would require aggression (obviously) against someone who has committed no aggression. Get it? Note: Whether or not the mugger in the above example dies as a result of being shot is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/184 "2016-01-09T02:36:30Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > The guy wanted to move along. I did move on to the next topic. > > “We ARE struggling together,” the thread title, is a reference to Monty Python’s Life of Brian, a specific scene of the film, in which the several anti-Roman resistance groups are in Pilate’s palace trying to kidnap him, but the infighting between the groups is hindering their ability to actually achieve their objectives, and they start attacking each other…sound familiar yet? Yes, in that I’ve seen the movie. No, in that I’m not seeing how that applies to the arguments that you’re making. There is no larger group that both liberals and conservatives should be united in struggling against, as the various Jewish insurrectionist groups should have been united against the Romans. As far as I’m concerned, _you_ are the Romans. And, in fairness, I should be the Romans to you. I mean, what exactly should I be uniting with you in struggle against? The social safety net? I think it should be bigger - you want to starve it. Abortion? I’m strongly pro-choice - you equate abortion to murder. Economics? You think Ludwig von Mises has good ideas - I think his economic theories would be the worst thing to hit this country since the Great Depression. Literally, almost every single thing you think is good policy, I think is terrible policy, and vice versa. Why _shouldn’t_ we be struggling against each other? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/185 "2016-01-09T02:36:49Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Now, what aggression has an unborn child committed? Trespassing, and theft of services. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/186 "2016-01-09T02:43:13Z")
Whether a fetus is “a person” boils down to a moral judgment on the nature of life. Why do your morals get to control the law on this issue? Seems like an aggression on people who have different moral views. So much for principles. ---
**Author:** ![HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawaiianBeachBoy_1959)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/187 "2016-01-09T02:44:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Trespassing, and theft of services. Wow. That is just…:(:(:(:(☹ No. Just…no. For so many reasons, no. :smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/188 "2016-01-09T02:46:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Trespassing, and theft of services. Not to mention the mother stealing my intellectual property (my dna) and creating derivative works! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/189 "2016-01-09T03:01:10Z")
> [@j666](#): > > This is all very interesting, but I still want to know exactly what this “welfare state” is, because I do suspect that chimera is the source of the OP’s opinion. An inaccurate translation of _Sozialstaat_ (“Social State”), which was what the Conservative Otto von Bismarck created in Nineteenth Century Germany to take the wind out of the sails of the Left, which wanted broader reforms. Essentially, the Social State gave the people enough to prevent outright revolts, and deprived the more progressive groups of talking points they could use to get support at the polls. The more modern welfare state is much the same: A fundamentally conservative\* philosophy and practice which provides the people with the essentials of life and prevents the worst excesses of unchecked Capitalism but does not attempt swift reforms or anything which could be described as a utopian program. In specific, it is _not_ concerned with moving towards a Communist “dictatorship of the proletariat”, and does _not_ see any form of anarchism as its end goal. In fact, the welfare state is not teleological at all; it has no end goal in mind, it exists to make the here and now better. \*(I say “conservative” somewhat hesitantly, because the usual meaning of the term in American political discourse is synonymous with “reactionary”: A conservative, the way I use the term and the way most political scientists use the term, is someone who wants moderate change and is skeptical of radical movements. A reactionary is someone who wants a radical shift _away_ from changes already made in order to re-create some aspects of the past. The mainstream GOP is reactionary. The mainstream Democratic Party is conservative.) Of course, our local beach bum thinks it is the apotheosis of ultra-liberal thought and action, somewhere to the left of the Khmer Rouge and well beyond what you can achieve without gulags and literal pyramids of human skulls. This is rather distant from the political reality in Western Europe, where multiple welfare states have existed for generations now, and show no sign of killing everyone who got some of that there book-learning. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/190 "2016-01-09T03:06:36Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Wow. That is just…:(:(:(:(☹ No. Just…no. For so many reasons, no. :smack::smack::smack: What? It’s all property law, right? I own my body, and nobody else does. If a fetus is a person, it owns its body, and nobody else does - including it’s mother. Mom never entered into an agreement to allow some other person access to her body. And you can’t argue implied consent because she agreed to sex - not if you want to be consistent about it, otherwise the fact that you use roads is implied consent to tax you for their upkeep. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/191 "2016-01-09T03:33:38Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > An inaccurate translation of _Sozialstaat_ (“Social State”), … Ah, ah, ah, is your name **HawaiianBeachBoy1959**? We want to know what s/he means by the term. HBB? What do you perceive “welfare” to be? > [@Miller](#): > > Trespassing, and theft of services. Thank you. I was going to challenge the concept of “unborn child”, but, well, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/192 "2016-01-10T00:58:25Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Ah, ah, ah, is your name **HawaiianBeachBoy1959**? We want to know what s/he means by the term. Hey, you were the one confused by a common phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/193 "2016-01-10T01:40:02Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Hey, you were the one confused by a common phrase. I think the point is that **HawaiianBeachBoy** is confused by the phrase, not **j666**. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/194 "2016-01-10T01:45:52Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Hey, you were the one confused by a common phrase. Yes, it is a common phrase, but I find it meaningless, particularly in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/195 "2016-01-10T02:03:02Z")
Libertarians have been part of the Republican coalition for decades now. The question isn’t whether they will be able to unite but whether they will split apart. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/196 "2016-01-10T11:43:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Trespassing, and theft of services. > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Wow. That is just…:(:(:(:(☹ No. Just…no. For so many reasons, no. :smack::smack::smack: List a few of them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/197 "2016-01-11T16:11:45Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > No, it’s called the Non-Aggression Principle. The idea is that you cannot use force against people without a clear justification. (Ex: Mugging a guy is wrong. Shooting the aforementioned mugger is not. Get it?) > > Now, what aggression has an unborn child committed? Answer: Zero. Therefore, under a word-for-word interpretation of the NAP, abortion is morally unjustified in that aborting said child would require aggression (obviously) against someone who has committed no aggression. Get it? Why does this non-agression principle apply to non-people? Does it also prohibit me from committing violence against my toaster? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/198 "2016-01-11T16:35:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Libertarians have been part of the Republican coalition for decades now. The question isn’t whether they will be able to unite but whether they will split apart. And I do find myself wondering how such hyper-rationalists as Libertarians purport to be can stomach the GOP in its present iteration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423.md?page=9)