# We are struggling together **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423 "2015-12-26T21:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/101 "2016-01-02T10:03:57Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Ummm…They’re. NOT. Working. Yes, they are. That is the problem: They’re working and making so little that they still need public assistance. Do you not understand the concept of “working poor”? No, don’t answer. That was a rhetorical question. We all _know_ you don’t. Answering it would only make you look even more ignorant. Second, people don’t choose to be unemployed. Unemployment isn’t fun. It’s a long string of bullshit Federal and state paperwork suffused with the warm, fuzzy glow of total financial insecurity, compounded by the fact you still have no guarantee of healthcare beyond immediate stabilization. The fact this lack of universal healthcare greatly balloons healthcare costs for all of us is another fact I am sure you’re greatly offended by and will refuse to understand. You PC Police are all the same. People become unemployed mainly through bad luck. That can happen to anyone. Lose a limb? Lose a job. Get on the wrong side of someone’s bad day? Boom, you’re outta there. You think it _can’t_ happen to you? You think you’re _special_? You’d have to be delusional to imagine you’re immune. > [@](#): > > "You must obey this now for a law, that he that will not work shall not eat (except by sickness he be disabled). For the labors of thirty or forty honest and industrious men shall not be consumed to maintain a hundred and fifty idle loiterers.[URL="[He who does not work, neither shall he eat - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat#cite_note-4%22%5D%22) Why should we obey a Bronze Age book of attempted morality? More to the point, why should we obey _that_ Bronze Age book of attempted morality? Don’t say America is a Christian nation. We’re not, and you whining about it and being offended won’t change that. Thomas Jefferson himself said that America is in no sense founded on the Christian faith, and you finding that Politically Incorrect won’t change that fact in the slightest. If more Conservatives realized the power of randomness and stopped imagining that they were special little snowflakes who can never fail due to simple misfortune the world would be a much better place. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/102 "2016-01-02T13:01:27Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Why should we obey a Bronze Age book of attempted morality? More to the point, why should we obey _that_ Bronze Age book of attempted morality? In fairness, that was a quote from John Smith. Of course, Jamestown in 1609 had quite different issues from those we face today. **HawaiianBeachBoy 1959** is attempting to shoehorn Smith’s problems with gold-seekers and gentlemen into today’s problems, and it’s not a match. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/103 "2016-01-02T13:50:19Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > In fairness, that was a quote from John Smith. Of course, Jamestown in 1609 had quite different issues from those we face today. **HawaiianBeachBoy 1959** is attempting to shoehorn Smith’s problems with gold-seekers and gentlemen into today’s problems, and it’s not a match. Smith was quoting Paul the Apostle, specifically his second letter to the Thessalonians. It’s interesting that, by using the quote, our beachy friend is also quoting Lenin. Of course, Lenin was more interested in punishing the idle rich than the idle poor, which means **HawaiianBeachBoy 1959** is his natural sworn enemy. ---
**Author:** ![HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawaiianBeachBoy_1959)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/104 "2016-01-03T01:30:34Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Yes, they are. That is the problem: They’re working and making so little that they still need public assistance. Do you not understand the concept of “working poor”? No, don’t answer. That was a rhetorical question. We all _know_ you don’t. Answering it would only make you look even more ignorant. > > Second, people don’t choose to be unemployed. Unemployment isn’t fun. It’s a long string of bullshit Federal and state paperwork suffused with the warm, fuzzy glow of total financial insecurity, compounded by the fact you still have no guarantee of healthcare beyond immediate stabilization. The fact this lack of universal healthcare greatly balloons healthcare costs for all of us is another fact I am sure you’re greatly offended by and will refuse to understand. You PC Police are all the same. > > People become unemployed mainly through bad luck. That can happen to anyone. Lose a limb? Lose a job. Get on the wrong side of someone’s bad day? Boom, you’re outta there. You think it _can’t_ happen to you? You think you’re _special_? You’d have to be delusional to imagine you’re immune. > > Why should we obey a Bronze Age book of attempted morality? More to the point, why should we obey _that_ Bronze Age book of attempted morality? Don’t say America is a Christian nation. We’re not, and you whining about it and being offended won’t change that. Thomas Jefferson himself said that America is in no sense founded on the Christian faith, and you finding that Politically Incorrect won’t change that fact in the slightest. > > If more Conservatives realized the power of randomness and stopped imagining that they were special little snowflakes who can never fail due to simple misfortune the world would be a much better place. One, Jefferson never said that. The document you’re thinking of is the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, which was rendered null and void at the onset of the First Barbary War in 1801 which was newly-inaugurated President Jefferson’s first real test of leadership. (He sent in the USMC and they curb-stomped the Barbary Pirates.) Two, labor force participation is the lowest it has ever been in America since 1978 thanks to (you guessed it!) the welfare state which is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY unsustainable. The system should be ONLY for those who TRULY need it, and if you can’t find a job, you’re clearly not trying. Three, Lenin stole this concept to justify what is effectively state-backed organized crime. He and his bogus ideology created more poor people than any other ideology on Earth, and BILLIONS are still feeling the disastrous after-effects. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/105 "2016-01-03T09:13:56Z")
No. The differences are too great. The same as the democrats cannot go with the Greens party. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/106 "2016-01-03T11:50:47Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > One, Jefferson never said that. The document you’re thinking of is the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, which was rendered null and void at the onset of the First Barbary War in 1801 which was newly-inaugurated President Jefferson’s first real test of leadership. (He sent in the USMC and they curb-stomped the Barbary Pirates.) Honest mistake. Jefferson coined the phrase “separation of church and state” (technically “a wall of separation between church and state”), which amounts to the same thing: We are not a Christian country. > [@](#): > > Two, labor force participation is the lowest it has ever been in America since 1978 thanks to (you guessed it!) the welfare state which is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY unsustainable. The system should be ONLY for those who TRULY need it, and if you can’t find a job, you’re clearly not trying. First, if welfare states are so unsustainable, how is it that multiple countries have been able to sustain them for decades? Second, a big reason the labor force participation rate is so low is the Boomers aging out of the job market. This is going to get worse before it gets better, and, guess what, cutting the welfare state (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and so on) isn’t going to be politically feasible due directly to this trend. The AARP Votes. It’s practically an axiom. Get used to it. ([This article contains a lot of good cites.](http://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obama-haters-love-most-and-the-truth-behind-it/)) > [@](#): > > Three, Lenin stole this concept to justify what is effectively state-backed organized crime. He and his bogus ideology created more poor people than any other ideology on Earth, and BILLIONS are still feeling the disastrous after-effects. OK, I agree with you about this. I hate Lenin as much as you do. I just thought it was an interesting little twist. ---
**Author:** ![HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawaiianBeachBoy_1959)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/107 "2016-01-03T23:25:05Z")
1. Well, what Jefferson meant by “wall of separation” is that the State can’t compel people to join a church or follow a certain religion. He knew full well that getting rid of all religious influence in government was ridiculous. Think: “Thou shalt not kill.” Plenty of countries have the death penalty for murder. (Something I totally agree with.) 2. Welfare states are only sustainable in smaller European countries with a steady population flow. (Even with that, there’s a population crisis there.) The old guys retire, the new guys come in. The problem here is as the old guys are retiring, there aren’t any new guys coming in. There’s an old saying, “The world needs chiefs and Indians.” That mentality is strong in Europe. Here, though, every parent thinks their baby boy or baby girl is going to get to be a chief and anyone who DARES suggest their special little boy/girl is an Indian gets to suffer the wrath of an angry mom. It’s sort of irritating that everyone thinks they can be a chief and that the world owes them the position of chief. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/108 "2016-01-04T00:31:27Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > 1. [Jefferson] knew full well that getting rid of all religious influence in government was ridiculous. Can you provide a source for this? > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > 1. Welfare states are only sustainable in smaller European countries with a steady population flow. … > It’s sort of irritating that everyone thinks they can be a chief and that the world owes them the position of chief. I cannot quite follow the logic that led from the first claim to the last. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/109 "2016-01-04T00:51:33Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > “The world needs chiefs and Indians.” That mentality is strong in Europe. Here, though, every parent thinks their baby boy or baby girl is going to get to be a chief and anyone who DARES suggest their special little boy/girl is an Indian gets to suffer the wrath of an angry mom. It’s sort of irritating that everyone thinks they can be a chief and that the world owes them the position of chief. :dubious: It’s the Republicans who want every Indian to think he/she can become a rich entrepreneur if the nanny state would just get out of the way. If instead the right-wing makes the admission you just did, that their goal is to empower the elite, it’s no wonder you want voter tests to limit participation by the lower classes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/110 "2016-01-04T01:24:53Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > 1. Well, what Jefferson meant by “wall of separation” is that the State can’t compel people to join a church or follow a certain religion. He knew full well that getting rid of all religious influence in government was ridiculous. Think: “Thou shalt not kill.” Plenty of countries have the death penalty for murder. (Something I totally agree with.) Plenty of people (Jefferson for example) have been able to oppose murder without invoking the fear of divine punishment. ---
**Author:** ![HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawaiianBeachBoy_1959)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/111 "2016-01-04T02:49:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Plenty of people (Jefferson for example) have been able to oppose murder without invoking the fear of divine punishment. The Ten Commandments were backed up by more specific provisions also found in Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus. Hmm, basic law backed up by more specific provisions…where else have I seen this…? The Commandments are just proverbial icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawaiianBeachBoy_1959)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/112 "2016-01-04T02:58:55Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I cannot quite follow the logic that led from the first claim to the last. Sorry, a LOT got lost in editing before I posted. Sen. Rubio said recently that there’s a societal stigma to blue collar labor in the States. That doesn’t exist in Europe. They see the blue collar workers as doing something important. (They do in any part of the world, but America is the only nation that stigmatized it.) The problem is, there’s not exactly a lot of folks lining up to do the dirty jobs that, you gotta admit, are super-important. Also, another part that got edited out is that welfare is paid for by taxes. The European nations can afford their welfare state because there’s a consistent working population and, by extension, a somewhat consistent stream of tax revenue. Here in the States, though, that’s gonna backfire badly as the Baby Boomers get older and costs get astronomically higher. There’s too small a working population in the US to support all those people. The last part about chiefs and Indians is: The world needs guys like electricians, plumbers, welders, things of that sort. We can’t all be “chiefs.” Some of us gotta be “Indians.” (Yeah, I gotta work on my editing skills.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/113 "2016-01-04T03:01:08Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Two, labor force participation is the lowest it has ever been in America since 1978 thanks to (you guessed it!) the welfare state which is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY unsustainable. The system should be ONLY for those who TRULY need it, and if you can’t find a job, you’re clearly not trying. The labor participation rate is low because we have nearly twice as many retirees in America as we did during the Carter Administration. Twice as many old people + 65% more adults = labor participation rate is going to go down. This has nothing to do with welfare. It’s about the Baby Boomers enjoying time with their grandchildren. Holy fuck, you really shouldn’t be demanding a test on public policy before allowing voting rights. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/114 "2016-01-04T03:22:39Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > The Ten Commandments were backed up by more specific provisions also found in Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus. Hmm, basic law backed up by more specific provisions…where else have I seen this…? > > The Commandments are just proverbial icing on the cake. I’m not disputing that religious injunctions against murder exist. What I said was that people can also oppose murder without any religious motivation. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/115 "2016-01-04T10:48:39Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Sorry, a LOT got lost in editing before I posted. Did you also edit out the source for your claim: > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > 1. [Jefferson] knew full well that getting rid of all religious influence in government was ridiculous. > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Sen. Rubio said recently that there’s a societal stigma to blue collar labor in the States. That doesn’t exist in Europe. They see the blue collar workers as doing something important. > (They do in any part of the world, but America is the only nation that stigmatized it.) > The problem is, there’s not exactly a lot of folks lining up to do the dirty jobs that, you gotta admit, are super-important. What evidence is there of “a societal stigma to blue collar labor in the States”? Hell, what evidence is there of blue collar work in the U.S.? What “dirty jobs” are employers having difficulty filling, and, most importantly, **how much do they pay?** > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Also, another part that got edited out is that welfare is paid for by taxes. The European nations can afford their welfare state because there’s a consistent working population and, by extension, a somewhat consistent stream of tax revenue. Here in the States, though, that’s gonna backfire badly as the Baby Boomers get older and costs get astronomically higher. There’s too small a working population in the US to support all those people. The last part about chiefs and Indians is: The world needs guys like electricians, plumbers, welders, things of that sort. We can’t all be “chiefs.” Some of us gotta be “Indians.” > > (Yeah, I gotta work on my editing skills.) You have brought up retiring baby boomers and “the welfare state” together a couple of times now. Do you consider social security, into which these retirees have paid their entire working lives, a form of welfare? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/116 "2016-01-04T13:30:57Z")
The question wasn’t directed at me, but I’ll try to give an answer… > [@j666](#): > > You have brought up retiring baby boomers and “the welfare state” together a couple of times now. Do you consider social security, into which these retirees have paid their entire working lives, a form of welfare? If by “social security” you mean [SPOILER]the system where money is stolen at gunpoint from hard-working Americans and spent on hookers and blow for our “President”'s Secret Service detail when they go on expensive junkets, so that even more money has to be stolen from hard-working Americans and Job Creators to provide just enough money for Grannie to live in a ghetto with people who can’t even speak English and don’t worship the Christian God, _ **then I condemn that European-style “Social Security” with all my heart and compare it to the worst forms of Lenin-Stalinest Gulag-style “welfare state.”** _[/SPOILER] But if by “social security” you mean [SPOILER]a system where hard-working Americans can voluntarily put savings into private investments, far from the grasping hands of the IRS and the corrupt guvmint gun-grabbers who suckle at the IRS’s teats, and spend their own money as they see fit, even if that means buying large soft drinks or historic flags of which the nanny state disapproves; and can keep their profits in the Cayman Islands so the IRS can’t steal it and spend it on child prostitutes for the lazy ne’er-do-well teat-sucklers; and where Americans who are too unfortunate to have savings, probably because the guvmint confiscated their property, forced them to kill their babies, vaccinate their children and spend what little extra money they had on the filthy communist BarackHusseinacare, will nevertheless enjoy retirement in a community with other Christian English-speaking Americans due to the benevolence of Churches and the patriotic Job Creators who pay tithes, _**then I applaud this privatised True American “Social Security” with all my heart. Surely the Lord God will send his Angels to the Land of the Free and say “These are my chosen people of whom I am so proud.”**_[/SPOILER] Does this help? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/117 "2016-01-04T16:20:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The question wasn’t directed at me, but I’ll try to give an answer… > > If by “social security” you mean > > [SPOILER]the system where money is stolen at gunpoint from hard-working Americans and spent on hookers and blow for our “President”'s Secret Service detail when they go on expensive junkets, so that even more money has to be stolen from hard-working Americans and Job Creators to provide just enough money for Grannie to live in a ghetto with people who can’t even speak English and don’t worship the Christian God, > > _ **then I condemn that European-style “Social Security” with all my heart and compare it to the worst forms of Lenin-Stalinest Gulag-style “welfare state.”** _[/SPOILER] > But if by “social security” you mean > > [SPOILER]a system where hard-working Americans can voluntarily put savings into private investments, far from the grasping hands of the IRS and the corrupt guvmint gun-grabbers who suckle at the IRS’s teats, > > and spend their own money as they see fit, even if that means buying large soft drinks or historic flags of which the nanny state disapproves; and can keep their profits in the Cayman Islands so the IRS can’t steal it and spend it on child prostitutes for the lazy ne’er-do-well teat-sucklers; > > and where Americans who are too unfortunate to have savings, probably because the guvmint confiscated their property, forced them to kill their babies, vaccinate their children and spend what little extra money they had on the filthy communist BarackHusseinacare, will nevertheless enjoy retirement in a community with other Christian English-speaking Americans due to the benevolence of Churches and the patriotic Job Creators who pay tithes, > > _**then I applaud this privatised True American “Social Security” with all my heart. > Surely the Lord God will send his Angels to the Land of the Free and say “These are my chosen people of whom I am so proud.”**_[/SPOILER] > Does this help? Damn you, I’m watching the Prohibition documentary on PBS right now. This is too creepy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/118 "2016-01-04T18:00:15Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > The Democrats have apparently made “just throw more money at it” their theme song regarding poverty, and anyone can see that it isn’t working. It’s backfired spectacularly, and half a century, and $1 trillion USD has done nothing to lift anyone out of poverty in America. At all. [Not true.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lyndon_Baines_Johnson) > [@](#): > > Programs launched by Johnson through his Great Society initiative include: > Bilingual Education Act > Community Action Agencies > Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 > Elementary and Secondary Education > Head Start Program > Higher Education Act of 1965 > Job Corps > Model Cities Program > NASA Art Program > National Endowment for the Arts > National Endowment for the Humanities > Office of Economic Opportunity > Older Americans Act > Project Follow Through > Samuel Jefferson Mason > Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program > Teacher Corps > Upward Bound > > For years conservatives have attacked Johnson for this “failed” initiative, but poverty dropped from 20% when he took office to 12% when he left. It clearly worked among the black community with a drop from 55% in 1960 to 27% in 1968. It was also the last time the Gini coefficient was less than .400 (still high today for the West) in the United States.[3] Not exactly a “failure,” if anything staunch success by a rational estimate, but conservatives will never see fact with these estimates. [See also:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty#Results_and_aftermath) > [@](#): > > In the decade following the 1964 introduction of the war on poverty, poverty rates in the U.S. dropped to their lowest level since comprehensive records began in 1958: from 17.3% in the year the Economic Opportunity Act was implemented to 11.1% in 1973. They have remained between 11 and 15.2% ever since.[8] It is important to note, however, that the steep decline in poverty rates began in 1959, 5 years before the introduction of the war on poverty (see figure 4 below).[9] > > The ‘absolute poverty line’ is the threshold below which families or individuals are considered to be lacking the resources to meet the basic needs for healthy living; having insufficient income to provide the food, shelter and clothing needed to preserve health. Poverty among Americans between ages 18–64 has fallen only marginally since 1966, from 10.5% then to 10.1% today. Poverty has significantly fallen among Americans under 18 years old from 23% in 1964 down to less than 17%, although it has risen again to 20% in 2009.[10] The most dramatic decrease in poverty was among Americans over 65, which fell from 28.5% in 1966 to 10.1% today. > > In 2004, more than 35.9 million, or 12% of Americans including 12.1 million children, were considered to be living in poverty with an average growth of almost 1 million per year. According to the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, since the Johnson Administration almost $15 trillion has been spent on welfare, with poverty rates being about the same as during the Johnson Administration.[11] A 2013 study published by Columbia University asserts that without the social safety net, the poverty rate would have been 29% for 2012, instead of 16%.[12] According to OECD data from 2012, the poverty rate before taxes and transfers was 28.3%, while the poverty rate after taxes and transfers fell to 17.4%.[13] > > The OEO was dismantled by President Nixon in 1973, though many of the agency’s programs were transferred to other government agencies. > > According to the “Readers’ Companion to U.S. Women’s History”, > > > [@](#): > > > > Many observers point out that the War on Poverty’s attention to Black America created the grounds for the backlash that began in the 1970s. The perception by the white middle class that it was footing the bill for ever-increasing services to the poor led to diminished support for welfare state programs, especially those that targeted specific groups and neighborhoods. Many whites viewed Great Society programs as supporting the economic and social needs of low-income urban minorities; they lost sympathy, especially as the economy declined during the 1970s.[14] > > United States Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare under President Jimmy Carter, Joseph A. Califano, Jr. wrote in 1999 in an issue of the Washington Monthly that:[15] > > > [@](#): > > > > “In waging the war on poverty, congressional opposition was too strong to pass an income maintenance law. So LBJ took advantage of the biggest automatic cash machine around: Social Security. He proposed, and Congress enacted, whopping increases in the minimum benefits that lifted some two million Americans 65 and older above the poverty line. In 1996, thanks to those increased minimum benefits, Social Security lifted 12 million senior citizens above the poverty line … No Great Society undertaking has been subjected to more withering conservative attacks than the Office of Economic Opportunity. Yet, the War on Poverty was founded on the most conservative principle: Put the power in the local community, not in Washington; give people at the grassroots the ability to stand tall on their own two feet. Conservative claims that the OEO poverty programs were nothing but a waste of money are preposterous … Eleven of the 12 programs that OEO launched in the mid-'60s are alive, well and funded at an annual rate exceeding $10 billion; apparently legislators believe they’re still working.” > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > Welfare fraud is rampant, people are staying on the system for decades, and it’s costing too much money. Cite? > [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > The unit of government closest to the individual is the best suited to take care of the individual. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/119 "2016-01-04T18:10:28Z")
> [@HawaiianBeachBoy\_1959](#): > > 1. End the Federal Reserve. (Do I need to go into the fact that they have less accountability than small children and less transparency than the KGB? Or how about that in the 100 years since Wilson created that economic Eldritch Abomination, our dollar has lost 99 percent of its value?) So what? Practically every currency has lost value during that period. It doesn’t matter, we still have a thriving economy – there are a lot of things wrong with it, but those things have nothing to do with currency inflation. [What matters is what the Fed is **for.**](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve) > [@](#): > > **Austrian school and free banking proponents** > > Much of the opposition to the Fed in non-conspiratorial circles (though there is some overlap) comes from the Austrian school (a less pejorative-sounding name for gross economic illiteracy), who are free banking proponents and generally draw on Ludwig von Mises’ arguments against central banking. Ron Paul is particularly known for his multi-decadal anti-Fed crusade in Congress. In short, they claim that the Fed creates the business cycle through the expansion of the money supply which leads to “market distortion” and “malinvestment” due to easy money; they’ve been proven wrong ever since. > > **Ignoring lessons from the US Free Banking Era (1837 to 1864)** > > The biggest flaw with the free banking proponents is they either are ignorant or ignore the many problems seen in the Free Banking Era of the US. > > The first problem was that during this era banks issued bank notes based on the gold and silver in their vaults effectively printing money. Since these bank notes could only be redeemed at face value at the bank that issued them the result was the actual value of the note decreasing the further from the bank it got. Then there was the issue if the bank failed these bank notes became worthless. This made any form of long distance commerce difficult, if not impossible. > > The second problem was since the laws were set up by the individual states there was no consistency with regard to reserve requirements, interest rates for loans and deposits, capital ratios, or anything else. Worse enforcement of what laws there were was highly variable within a state. This resulted in some states what was later called “wildcat banking,” where the bank notes were not backed by precious metal at all, but by mortgages or bonds.[26] In other words the exact same problems as are claimed regarding the Fed but with even less oversight. > > **Ignoring the _original_ Great Depression (1873–79 or 96)** > > Before the Crash of 1929, the term “Great Depression” referred to the period of 1873–96 which was marked by deflation (largely because the US shifted from a bimetallic standard to a de facto gold standard in 1873) and the rapid industrialization of the country. The term Gilded Age is also applied to this period and sometimes in a pejorative manner – a shiny golden cover hiding a rotting or rotted core. The deflation that marked this period is why some wanted to return to a bimetallic standard, as hammered home in William Jennings Bryan’s Cross of Gold speech in 1896. Even the shorter range of 1873–79 stated by the NBER is longer than the 1930’s Great Depression by 22 months. This era is now called “the Long Depression”; the lesson it gives us is that switching over from a bimetallic standard to a gold standard (which the Coinage Act of 1873 effectively did) triggers deflation for extended periods of time. > > **After the establishment of the Fed** > > The US only saw three major banking crises after the establishment of the Fed (Great Depression, S&L crisis, 2008 financial crisis) and only two since the creation of federal deposit insurance, compared to one about every decade prior to that.[27] The business cycle had also seen shorter and smaller contractions. > > Essentially, what this demonstrates is that the minority of libertarians[28] and Austrian schoolers who believe in free banking, like Ron Paul seem to love the idea of going back to the 19th century and having us all stuff gold bricks under our mattresses every time it looks like there’s going to be a run on the bank. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423/120 "2016-01-04T21:29:05Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I feel like the democratic party would be more prone to oppressive tactics if they ever felt they had enough leverage . . . What do you base that on, and what would be an example of a Dem “oppressive tactic”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-struggling-together/741423.md?page=7)