# We as Liberals.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2007, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622 "2007-07-13T09:44:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/41 "2007-07-13T17:06:49Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “Human society cannot do without the apparatus of the state, but the whole of mankind’s progress has had to be achieved against the resistance and opposition of the state and its power of coercion.” — Ludwig von Mises, _Liberalism in the Classical Tradition_ [/QUOTE] “Now this power… have no other end or measure, when in the hands of the magistrate, but to preserve the members of that society in their lives, liberties, and possessions, and so cannot be an absolute, arbitrary power over their lives and fortunes, which are as much as possible to be preserved; **but a power to make laws, and annex such penalties to them as may tend to the preservation of the whole, by cutting off those parts, and those only, which are so corrupt that they threaten the sound and healthy, without which no severity is lawful.** ”-John Locke, _Two Treatises on Government_ “The sovereign, as undertaker of the duty of the people, has the right to tax them for purposes essentially connected with their own preservation. Such are, in particular, the relief of the poor, foundling asylums, and ecclesiastical establishments, otherwise designated charitable or pious foundations. 1. The people have in fact united themselves by their common will into a society, which has to be perpetually maintained; and for this purpose they have subjected themselves to the internal power of the state, in order to preserve the members of this society even when they are not able to support themselves.”-Immanuel Kant, _The Science of Right_ “Right and authorization to use coercion therefore mean one and the same thing…unless one wants to renounce any concepts of right, the first thing it has to resolve upon is the principle that it must leave the state of nature, in which each follows its own judgment, unite itself with all others … subject itself to a public lawful external coercion, and to enter into a condition in which what is to be recognized as belonging to it is determined by law and is allotted to it by adequate power (not its own but an external power); that is, it ought above all else to enter a civil condition.”-ibid ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/42 "2007-07-13T17:31:17Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] “Now this power… have no other end or measure, when in the hands of the magistrate, but to preserve the members of that society in their lives, liberties, and possessions, and so cannot be an absolute, arbitrary power over their lives and fortunes, which are as much as possible to be preserved; **but a power to make laws, and annex such penalties to them as may tend to the preservation of the whole, by cutting off those parts, and those only, which are so corrupt that they threaten the sound and healthy, without which no severity is lawful.** ”-John Locke, _Two Treatises on Government_ “The sovereign, as undertaker of the duty of the people, has the right to tax them for purposes essentially connected with their own preservation. Such are, in particular, the relief of the poor, foundling asylums, and ecclesiastical establishments, otherwise designated charitable or pious foundations. 1. The people have in fact united themselves by their common will into a society, which has to be perpetually maintained; and for this purpose they have subjected themselves to the internal power of the state, in order to preserve the members of this society even when they are not able to support themselves.”-Immanuel Kant, _The Science of Right_ “Right and authorization to use coercion therefore mean one and the same thing…unless one wants to renounce any concepts of right, the first thing it has to resolve upon is the principle that it must leave the state of nature, in which each follows its own judgment, unite itself with all others … subject itself to a public lawful external coercion, and to enter into a condition in which what is to be recognized as belonging to it is determined by law and is allotted to it by adequate power (not its own but an external power); that is, it ought above all else to enter a civil condition.”-ibid [/QUOTE] “We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.” — Hillary Clinton, 28 June, 2004 ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/43 "2007-07-13T17:37:08Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.” — Hillary Clinton, 28 June, 2004 [/QUOTE] In the interest of full disclosure here’s the full quote. > [@Hillary](#): > > “Many of you are well enough off that … the tax cuts may have helped you,” Sen. Clinton said. “We’re saying that for America to get back on track, we’re probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.” Sounds a little different in context, no? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/44 "2007-07-13T17:38:22Z")
[http://mediamatters.org/items/200707020004](http://mediamatters.org/items/200707020004) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/45 "2007-07-13T17:39:39Z")
liberals don’t have a good name anywhere except amongst other liberals. I hate to inform you. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/46 "2007-07-13T17:40:34Z")
Change your name or I quit! I’ll do it! I swear to God! Please? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/47 "2007-07-13T17:41:00Z")
[QUOTE=kellner] Indeed. I realize that the word has different connotations for most modern Americans and you shouldn’t argue from translations but I can’t help it, the common American usage is still deeply irritating. [/QUOTE] As an American, I highly agree with you. It’s a twisting left over from the cold war, and the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/48 "2007-07-13T17:43:23Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] liberals don’t have a good name anywhere except amongst other liberals. I hate to inform you. [/QUOTE] That’s true. What’s more, they know it, which is why they duck that label if they’re actually running for anything. And that bad name is largely self-inflicted. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/49 "2007-07-13T17:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] That’s true. What’s more, they know it, which is why they duck that label if they’re actually running for anything. And that bad name is largely self-inflicted. [/QUOTE] Well, I’m convinced. Thanks for the insight. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/50 "2007-07-13T17:46:52Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Sounds a little different in context, no? [/QUOTE] Not really, no. I think if you advocate higher taxes, you should have the balls to call it what it is. I don’t see any particular reason to bash Hillary for calling a spade a spade, but neither do I see much point in pretending she _really_ called it an earthworks engineering facilitator. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/51 "2007-07-13T17:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “Human society cannot do without the apparatus of the state, but the whole of mankind’s progress has had to be achieved against the resistance and opposition of the state and its power of coercion.” — Ludwig von Mises, _Liberalism in the Classical Tradition_ I completely agree with him! 🙂 [/QUOTE] I think it’s interesting how much revulsion those who do not agree with von Mises tend to have toward him. I can see a lot of sense in what he says, but I basically do not agree with some other things. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/52 "2007-07-13T17:55:07Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I think it’s interesting how much revulsion those who do not agree with von Mises tend to have toward him. I can see a lot of sense in what he says, but I basically do not agree with some other things. [/QUOTE] But wait! There’s more! “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” — Ludwig von Mises, _Liberalism in the Classical Tradition_ Ah, beautiful. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/53 "2007-07-13T18:03:51Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Well, the oldest definition of liberal is simply generous. “He is liberal with his affections.” Maybe **Lib** is just a generous guy. [/QUOTE] Hey, that is a good point, whatever faults Liberal has, he is generous. I know he has paid for many memberships\* over the years. Jim - and one dismemberment if you will allow the expression. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/54 "2007-07-13T18:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=pool] What happened to his spiffy little font, it is back to normal. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the heads up. I’ve lowered my shields. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/55 "2007-07-13T18:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] …“The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” — Ludwig von Mises, _Liberalism in the Classical Tradition_… [/QUOTE] Do you mean to tell me that these people do not recognize the primacy of private property as the very touchstone of civilization? Perish the thought! When a 2 year old seizes a toy firetruck and shrieks “MINE!”, he has made the first halting step to the fullness of his humanity! Sure, there are other rights, but they are not central, not essential, they are embellishments set about the crown jewel of private property, for no better purpose than to enhance its lustre. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/56 "2007-07-13T18:26:23Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Sounds a little different in context, no? [/QUOTE] Not especially, no. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/57 "2007-07-13T18:27:23Z")
> [@Luc](#): > > When a 2 year old seizes a toy firetruck and shrieks “MINE!”, he has made the first halting step to the fullness of his humanity! Tell you what. If you’ll leave my fucking body and mind alone to do with as I please, you can have my goddamn firetruck. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/58 "2007-07-13T18:47:52Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] But wait! There’s more! “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” — Ludwig von Mises, _Liberalism in the Classical Tradition_ Ah, beautiful. 🆒 [/QUOTE] _La propriété, c’est le vol!_\* - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, _Qu’est-ce que la propriété? ou Recherche sur le principe du Droit et du Gouvernment)_ \*Property is theft! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/59 "2007-07-13T19:43:54Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Also, how **WhyNot** could think “I’m a liberal much like **Liberal** is a liberal,” and then say she wants universal health care. [/QUOTE] Universal Health Care is (one of) my diversions from **Liberal** ’s philosophy. I think people should be responsible for their own decisions, and, so far as their actions do not cause harm to others, should be let make those decisions (as long as they are competent and informed adults.) I am not anti-taxes, however, as I want those to fund things like roads, daycares and that Universal Health Care thingy - things that are cheaper in great scale or require very large scale logistics. I don’t want to go back to depending on Joe Smith to keep his section of highway drivable. OTOH, I’m pro-legalization of all substances and activities among any number of consenting adults - recreational, sexual, marriage or otherwise. And much of the time, moreso than others it appears, I agree with what \*\*Liberal \*\*has to say in most threads, at least philosophically. I might think that it would fall down in reality, but I like the theory. I’ve never felt comfortable with the current Liberal/Conservative or Democrat/Republican currents; **Liberal** ’s is the closest to mine that I’ve seen, whatever you want to call it. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622/60 "2007-07-13T21:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] Not especially, no. [/QUOTE] Well knowing you, Hillary could say she was going to donate all her money to you personally then offer to blow you, and you would still think she is a liberal bitch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-as-liberals/411622.md?page=4)