# We can actually get rid of nearly all unauthorized immigrants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304 "2016-03-27T02:44:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/81 "2016-03-29T17:58:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > In Maryland, there were 150,000 people on unemployment in Feb 2016. There are over 1,000,000 in California. Aren’t these people healthy adults sitting around all day looking for work? They will be mostly adults, but I would not bet they’re all healthy (as in, physically fit enough to be climbing around on roofs), no. Most American workers aren’t. In particular, the long-term unemployed (the people who aren’t just between jobs but have been out of work six months or more) are disproportionately older, and people in their 40s and 50s and 60s typically don’t have the stamina, balance, and sheer muscle strength of 20-somethings. Many of the fields dominated by illegal labor (such as construction and agriculture) are young men’s fields precisely because of the physical demands of the job. Further, most people on unemployment are actively seeking work in the fields in which they are trained. Right now, for example, there is a glut of people with experience in the oilfields (from roustabouts to petroleum engineers) on UI because of the sharp downturn in that industry. If you retrain all of them for roofing and construction, what’s going to happen when the oil industry needs more workers again? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/82 "2016-03-29T18:09:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks for the lesson Captain Obvious. The quote was - “There’s not some huge surplus of healthy adults sitting around all day just waiting for jobs in roofing or meatpacking” > > yes, yes there is. His sentence was in the context of his entire post and the one he was responding to though. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/83 "2016-03-29T19:22:41Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Would you not hire an American citizen directly on these same terms? I would be happy to. I am not happy to mount an extensive search for a legal us citizen or green card holder. This is who i found. > [@Slash1972](#): > > You pay your possibly illegal cleaning lady more than you would pay a legal cleaning lady from a cleaning service? I pay $40-$50 per hour, depending on how long she takes. I haven’t priced cleaning services recently. The legal cleaning lady from a service would be paid a small fraction of what the service charges, though. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/84 "2016-03-29T19:28:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I would be happy to. I am not happy to mount an extensive search for a legal us citizen or green card holder. This is who i found. > > I pay $40-$50 per hour, depending on how long she takes. I’m pretty sure it would not take an extensive search. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/85 "2016-03-29T19:40:35Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’m pretty sure it would not take an extensive search. In what part of the country are you located, and what steps would you take to make sure the cleaner you hired was in fact legal? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/86 "2016-03-29T20:52:26Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > They will be mostly adults, but I would not bet they’re all healthy (as in, physically fit enough to be climbing around on roofs), no. Most American workers aren’t. Are you actually saying that most American workers are not physically fit enough to be climbing around on a roof? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/87 "2016-03-29T20:55:17Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Further, most people on unemployment are actively seeking work in the fields in which they are trained. Right now, for example, there is a glut of people with experience in the oilfields (from roustabouts to petroleum engineers) on UI because of the sharp downturn in that industry. Oil rig roustabouts are not physically fit enough to climb around on a house roof? > [@](#): > > If you retrain all of them for roofing and construction, what’s going to happen when the oil industry needs more workers again? They will train new workers or offer enough money to bring back the old oil workers that are now roofing and, carpentering? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/88 "2016-03-29T21:01:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > His sentence was in the context of his entire post and the one he was responding to though. Well, that’s not what his quote was, but no matter. According to the USDA, 5.5 million households in 2014 that received SNAP benefits consisted solely of one or more non-elderly adults without disabilities with no children. These households had little to no earned income. It seems like this is an example of huge surplus of healthy adults sitting around waiting for jobs in roofing or meatpacking. [cite](http://www.fns.usda.gov/sites/default/files/ops/Characteristics2014.pdf) PDF, even though I still don’t know what the warning is for ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/89 "2016-03-29T21:03:45Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’m pretty sure it would not take an extensive search. Oh for heaven’s sake, finding a plumber who does good work and answers your calls is a nuisance. It took us several weeks to find a cleaning lady. I don’t want to look for another one. Also, a cleaning lady is sometime who spends a lot of time unsupervised in my house. I need someone with references, preferably from someone i know and trust. > [@slash2k](#): > > In what part of the country are you located, and what steps would you take to make sure the cleaner you hired was in fact legal? I am in the North East, and i haven’t taken any steps to make sure anyone i hire is legal, recently. When we hired a full time babysitter–an employee, not a contractor–we did advertise for someone willing to work on the books. We asked to see her visa, asked her to sign the appropriate form stating she was allowed to work in the US, and we withheld income taxes, as well as SS taxes. So i guess her SSN must have valid. I wouldn’t have objected to using e-verify if it has an okay interface. Hiring a full-time babysitter is a huge big deal, though, and we put a lot of time into that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/90 "2016-03-29T21:08:59Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > we did advertise for someone willing to work on the books. We asked to see her visa, asked her to sign the appropriate form stating she was allowed to work in the US, and we withheld income taxes, as well as SS taxes. So i guess her SSN must have valid. I wouldn’t have objected to using e-verify if it has an okay interface. Hiring a full-time babysitter is a huge big deal, though, and we put a lot of time into that. Why couldn’t you do the same thing for the cleaning lady? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/91 "2016-03-29T21:43:29Z")
Why would she? Perhaps she doesn’t care if the worker is “legal” or not - that’s between the cleaning lady and the government - no need for **puzzlegal** to butt in. **Puzzlegal’s** business is simply to get someone who does a good job, who she trusts, and who she’s willing to pay and treat decently - which apparently she’s done. Win! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/92 "2016-03-29T22:40:08Z")
Exactly. It was enough trouble to find a cleaning lady without the added bother of restricting the market to those who could demonstrate they had work papers. Why would i add that extra effort? What good does it do me? I didn’t check the papers of my plumber, the fence guy, the electrician, or the carpenter i bought a table from, either. Applying racial/linguistic stereotypes, I’d guess those people are all citizens. But I’ve never verified it. And doing so would be an additional burden to me. I’m told that in recent years the flooring guys are often illegal, too. (Someone you might hire to refinish your hardwood floor, for instance) The older Americans are retiring, and they are being replaced by Vietnamese immigrants, some legal, some not. Who asks the floor guy for papers? My point isn’t that people are actively seeking illegal labor. My point is that there are lots of jobs out there that don’t always require people to have an employer subject to e-verify or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/93 "2016-03-29T23:27:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Are you actually saying that most American workers are not physically fit enough to be climbing around on a roof? Climbing around on a roof swinging a hammer and toting bundles of shingles, sheets of plywood, pry bars, and the other tools of the trade for a full eight hours? Yes. The average American worker is now in his/her 40s; balance declines with age, and balance is a pretty significant requirement for a roofer. Shingles are heavy–as a roofer, you don’t just carry one or two, but lug around full bundles (40-70# per), often on steeply-sloping surfaces. I’m reasonably active, more physically fit than most of my coworkers, and do most of my own home repairs. I don’t do roofing, however, because I don’t have the physical strength and balance to be safe up there while doing useful work. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Oil rig roustabouts are not physically fit enough to climb around on a house roof? No, I didn’t say that. Roustabouts are but one example of the occupations laid off in the recent downturn. > [@Slash1972](#): > > They will train new workers or offer enough money to bring back the old oil workers that are now roofing and, carpentering? Neither of which are cheap or economically efficient. (Oil and gas jobs, e.g., tend to be concentrated in particular areas of the country. Mostly, these are not the same areas that need lots of roofers, so you’ve also got the expense of moving people back and forth across the country.) > [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, that’s not what his quote was, but no matter. > > According to the USDA, 5.5 million households in 2014 that received SNAP benefits consisted solely of one or more non-elderly adults without disabilities with no children. These households had little to no earned income. It seems like this is an example of huge surplus of healthy adults sitting around waiting for jobs in roofing or meatpacking. > > [cite](http://www.fns.usda.gov/sites/default/files/ops/Characteristics2014.pdf) PDF, even though I still don’t know what the warning is for Where in this PDF are you finding this statistic? When I look at it, I find on p. 61 (table A.23) that there are a total of 4.7 million non-disabled adults aged 18 to 49 in childless households, _including_ those who are currently working or in job training. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I am in the North East, and i haven’t taken any steps to make sure anyone i hire is legal, recently. When we hired a full time babysitter–an employee, not a contractor–we did advertise for someone willing to work on the books. We asked to see her visa, asked her to sign the appropriate form stating she was allowed to work in the US, and we withheld income taxes, as well as SS taxes. So i guess her SSN must have valid. I wouldn’t have objected to using e-verify if it has an okay interface. Hiring a full-time babysitter is a huge big deal, though, and we put a lot of time into that. I was actually addressing the question to Peremensoe, but this gives me a good opportunity to point out that most e-Verify validity surveys show that about half of undocumented workers will pass, because although the SSN she gave you was likely valid, that doesn’t mean it was _her_ SSN. Identity theft, forged and stolen documents, and the like are huge problems. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/94 "2016-03-29T23:38:18Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Climbing around on a roof swinging a hammer and toting bundles of shingles, sheets of plywood, pry bars, and the other tools of the trade for a full eight hours? Yes. > > The average American worker is now in his/her 40s; balance declines with age, and balance is a pretty significant requirement for a roofer. Is the average immigrant roofer they would be replacing also in their 40’s? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/95 "2016-03-29T23:45:47Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The average American worker is now in his/her 40s; balance declines with age, and balance is a pretty significant requirement for a roofer. Shingles are heavy–as a roofer, you don’t just carry one or two, but lug around full bundles (40-70# per), often on steeply-sloping surfaces. Actually, when I was doing roofing I was required to carry 80 pounds 30 feet up and down a ladder pretty much all day, for an 8 to 12 hour day. I had to stop because I just physically couldn’t do it anymore when I hit 50. My joints couldn’t take it anymore. I was probably a lot more physically fit than my age peers, probably I still am. A lot of people are terrified of heights as well. That doesn’t help either. Typically, the only people over 45 you see in roofing are supervisors who aren’t doing as much physical work as the grunts. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/96 "2016-03-29T23:51:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is the average immigrant roofer they would be replacing also in their 40’s? Nope. Roofing is a young man’s game. Per Pew, the median age of illegal immigrant adults in the U.S. is about 36, a full decade younger than the median of U.S. born adults. [Homeland Security](http://immigration.procon.org/sourcefiles/illegal-immigration-population-2012.pdf) says that the largest group are males aged 25-34, followed by 35-44. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/97 "2016-03-30T01:12:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IMO, the feds should crack down on businesses which employ illegals, and this would help somewhat. Some of the reasons it would not help more have already been mentioned here: > > [ul] > [li]Many illegals use fake IDs (and it should also be noted that employers who are too aggressive in trying to weed out fake IDs run the risk of being dinged for discrimination against Hispanics, so they need to walk a fine line).[/li][/ul] Never heard of that happening. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/98 "2016-03-30T01:14:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then agribusiness better get used to paying more. This. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/99 "2016-03-30T01:15:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Never heard of that happening. Cite? It happens all the time. It’s called [document abuse.](https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/employee-rights-resources/preventing-discrimination) Employers are fined for it on a regular basis. [Some pretty stiff fines are possible.](https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/100 "2016-03-30T01:25:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It’s the food consumer who’d need to get used to higher prices. Some foods, e.g. milk, would skyrocket in price without immigrant labor. Farm labor makes up a surprisingly [small percentage of the cost of agricultural products](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-without-illegal-labor/the-costs-and-benefits-of-a-raise-for-field-workers): > [@](#): > > If the influx of immigrant workers were slowed or stopped and farm wages rose, what would happen to expenditures on fresh fruits and vegetables? A case study from 1966 could give us some idea. > > That year, the United Farm Workers union won a 40 percent wage increase for some table grape harvesters, largely because the end of the Bracero program had cut off a supply of Mexican workers. The average earnings of U.S. field workers were $10.07 an hour in 2009, according to a U.S.D.A. survey of farm employers. If pressure to verify employees’ legal status resulted in a labor crisis similar to the one in 1966 and a similar 40 percent wage increase, average hourly earnings would rise to $14.10. If this were passed on to consumers, the 10 cent farm labor cost of a pound of apples would rise to 14 cents, and the $1 retail price would rise to $1.04. > > For a typical household, a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs translates into a 3.6 percent increase in retail prices.\*\* If farm wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 a year, the cost of two movie tickets.\*\* So apples would go up four cents on the dollar. Such skyrockets would make for the worst 4th of July ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304.md?page=6)