# We can actually get rid of nearly all unauthorized immigrants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304 "2016-03-27T02:44:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/101 "2016-03-30T11:13:46Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The last immigration reform bill was blocked by Your Party. It wasn’t perfect–but the issue needed to stay alive to appeal to the racist & xenophobic base of Your Party. > > So sad that Dreadful Trump & Almost as Dreadful Cruz have made the most of this base appeal to the base. But Your Party brought it on itself. Have fun learning to love the candidate Your Party chooses… The last immigration reform bill was a path to citizenship for illegals here today… and promises of more enforcement, along with any illegals coming here after 2012 or so being SOL, which we all know is a lie. Why should we support a bill that’s a “compromise” in that it only does one thing in reality(amnesty) while making the same false promises about enforcement that we’ve been hearing for 40 years? Come up with a real policy. If Democrats don’t actually want enforcement, and business friendly Republicans don’t actually want enforcement, then have the balls to pass an amnesty bill + making it easier to enter this country legally and stand by your principles. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/102 "2016-03-30T11:16:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There aren’t nearly as many doctors in the U.S, and they have a strong incentive to comply with the law. And maybe this won’t work either. Almost everyone is a patient, so everyone who is ever prescribed pain medication will go into this database. It’s pretty much as universal as e-verify, and every article I’ve read on it says that doctors are not happy with the idea at all, on privacy and compliance concerns. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/103 "2016-03-30T12:20:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [QUOTE=septimus] > It’s the food consumer who’d need to get used to higher prices. Some foods, e.g. milk, would skyrocket in price without immigrant labor. Farm labor makes up a surprisingly [small percentage of the cost of agricultural products](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-without-illegal-labor/the-costs-and-benefits-of-a-raise-for-field-workers): So apples would go up four cents on the dollar. Such skyrockets would make for the worst 4th of July ever. [/QUOTE] I’ll agree that my “skyrocket” may have been slightly hyperbolic, if you’ll agree my example, milk, was more germane than your apples. [“Losing Immigrant Workers on Dairy Farms Would **Nearly Double Retail Milk Prices** ”](http://www.agweb.com/article/losing-immigrant-workers-on-dairy-farms-would-nearly-double-retail-milk-prices-naa-news-release/). Or [read interviews of dairy farmers](http://hotair.com/archives/2015/03/31/dairy-farmers-bemoan-lack-of-illegal-aliens/): > [@](#): > > “The U.S. dairy industry absolutely cannot survive without [pro-dairy immigration reform],” said Dale, a dairy farmer who has moved toward robotic milking to avoid the labor problem. Like many dairy farmers, he did not want his full name or his farm’s name used because he was concerned that immigration officials would target his business. > … > “It’s just crazy,” said McMahon, who has several hundred cows at his farm more than 200 miles north of New York City. “I’m a lifelong Republican,” he said, shaking his head. “But I’m telling you, there are days when I think about switching.” One thing I think we can agree on is what the dairy farmer McMahon implies. It’s the Democrats who are looking for solution; the GOP just seizes on foreign labor as another way to inflame their base with hatred and fear. If **adaher** wants to push for rational policy … > [@adaher](#): > > Come up with a real policy. If Democrats don’t actually want enforcement, and business friendly Republicans don’t actually want enforcement, then have the balls to pass an amnesty bill + making it easier to enter this country legally and stand by your principles. … he needs to denounce the Pavlov reflex that unites him to the Party of hypocrites and demagogues. ETA: [This N.Y. Times opinion piece explains why substituting native unskilled labor may not be an answer.](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-without-illegal-labor/without-immigrant-labor-the-economy-would-crumble) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/104 "2016-03-30T12:56:30Z")
Democrats’ “solution” is to fool the rubes again. That’s not a solution. That’s making the current problem worse. If Democrats oppose enforcement, they should say so. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/105 "2016-03-30T13:11:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’ll agree that my “skyrocket” may have been slightly hyperbolic, if you’ll agree my example, milk, was more germane than your apples. I quoted an economist and you quoted a dairy farmer. Excuse me if I don’t find them equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/106 "2016-03-30T13:27:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Democrats’ “solution” is to fool the rubes again. That’s not a solution. That’s making the current problem worse. > > If Democrats oppose enforcement, they should say so. [Really?](http://fusion.net/story/252637/obama-has-deported-more-immigrants-than-any-other-president-now-hes-running-up-the-score/) > [@](#): > > When it comes to getting tough on immigration, Republican candidates talk the talk, but Obama walks the walk. President Obama has deported more people than any U.S. president before him, and almost more than every other president combined from the 20th century. Your Boy Trump is the one who is fooling the rubes. I don’t agree that getting rid of “nearly all unauthorized immigrants” will solve every problem we have. Oh, “Make America Great Again”–isn’t that _your_ slogan? (At one time, you had the intelligence to express disdain at The Donald; no more.) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/107 "2016-03-30T13:37:26Z")
Obama doesn’t want to deport immigrants, and he’s been trying to stop. The law is the law though. However, even at the levels Obama and Bush deported, more can still be done. That is, if we’re serious about the laws we’ve duly passed in our democratic system. My issue is that on this particular policy, we have rule of men, not rule of law. The law says one thing, the men in charge do the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/108 "2016-03-30T13:53:34Z")
Or [read interviews of dairy farmers](http://hotair.com/archives/2015/03/31/dairy-farmers-bemoan-lack-of-illegal-aliens/): "But I’m still stuck on the idea that we can’t find workers to do these jobs. As one of the farmers interviewed in the article states, he’s been paying the dairy workers in his employ an average of\*\* $2K per month plus housing on the farm with all utilities paid for. \*\*(Also meals in some cases.) Particularly in a tough economy, we can’t find citizens to take that deal? I worked on family farms in the summer growing up doing exactly that sort of work from time to time. It’s hard, no doubt about it. But it’s an honest job, and a lot better than starving. Perhaps the farmers need to raise their milk prices slightly and bump up the wages a bit? I don’t know, but it really seems like this could all be accomplished without being “forced” to hire illegal aliens. I’m less concerned about illegal immigrants than I am concerned about a culture where able bodied people refuse to work. Nobody is advocating that people in their 50s and 60s climb roofs. When there is a 50% Black teenage unemployment rate, I question why they aren’t utilized to fill these labor needs. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/109 "2016-03-30T13:58:23Z")
At the same wage point, they probably would prefer to hire experienced workers. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/110 "2016-03-30T14:03:13Z")
And apparently, we prefer stagnant wages. Economics 101: wages cannot go up unless labor supply gets tight. Which will never happen if we just import enough workers to keep wages down every time they threaten to rise. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/111 "2016-03-30T15:33:50Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Nobody is advocating that people in their 50s and 60s climb roofs. When there is a 50% Black teenage unemployment rate, I question why they aren’t utilized to fill these labor needs. How many of those black teenagers live in places near dairy farms? (How many of them have ever even seen a dairy cow?) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/112 "2016-03-30T15:35:11Z")
They’re close to the dairy farms than people not even in the country. It’s a short bus ride from New York City to the dairy farms. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/113 "2016-03-30T15:46:51Z")
How vigorously is E-verify currently enforced? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/114 "2016-03-30T15:50:34Z")
Not very. Arizona and South Carolina probably have the best implementation. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/115 "2016-03-30T16:06:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They’re close to the dairy farms than people not even in the country. It’s a short bus ride from New York City to the dairy farms. The illegal immigrants being brought in to work on upstate dairy farms aren’t commuting from Mexico, or even from New York City. They are living in upstate New York, on or very near the farms. You are asking teenagers to move from urban New York City to rural upstate New York. I would submit that’s probably a bigger cultural change than moving from rural Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/116 "2016-03-30T16:15:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > How vigorously is E-verify currently enforced? There are only a handful of places (outside of the federal government and federal contractors) where E-verify is legally mandated for most or all businesses, and even most of those jurisdictions have weak enforcement efforts. In Mississippi, e.g., the state requires that most employers use e-verify for new hires (but not existing workers). However, no one state agency has the lead role in enforcement, and funding for such enforcement is basically non-existent. The Attorney General’s office, for example, says they will investigate any complaints received, but they only rarely receive any and they don’t go seeking out companies to audit. Moreover, the law imposes no criminal penalties for non-compliance on employers. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/117 "2016-03-30T16:20:23Z")
That’s what I’ve been bitching about. Why don’t we do environmental and safety regulations that way? They put these laws on the books to make it look like they are doing something, then just pretend they aren’t even there. As I said, it’s not a question of whether we can get rid of illegal immigration, it’s about whether we want to. And we’re not exactly having an honest national discussion on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/118 "2016-03-30T16:22:39Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Where in this PDF are you finding this statistic? When I look at it, I find on p. 61 (table A.23) that there are a total of 4.7 million non-disabled adults aged 18 to 49 in childless households, _including_ those who are currently working or in job training. From page 20: “While the majority of SNAP households contained children, elderly individuals, or individuals with disabilities, in fiscal year 2014, \*\*24 percent (5.5 million households) consisted solely of one or more non-elderly adults without disabilities with no children \*\*(Table 3.2).” Bolding mine ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/119 "2016-03-30T16:25:29Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Climbing around on a roof swinging a hammer and toting bundles of shingles, sheets of plywood, pry bars, and the other tools of the trade for a full eight hours? Yes. > > The average American worker is now in his/her 40s; balance declines with age, and balance is a pretty significant requirement for a roofer. Shingles are heavy–as a roofer, you don’t just carry one or two, but lug around full bundles (40-70# per), often on steeply-sloping surfaces. > > I’m reasonably active, more physically fit than most of my coworkers, and do most of my own home repairs. I don’t do roofing, however, because I don’t have the physical strength and balance to be safe up there while doing useful work. Do you have similar excuses for why the average American worker cannot do meat packing as a job? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304/120 "2016-03-30T16:32:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Exactly. It was enough trouble to find a cleaning lady without the added bother of restricting the market to those who could demonstrate they had work papers. Why would i add that extra effort? What good does it do me? > > I didn’t check the papers of my plumber, the fence guy, the electrician, or the carpenter i bought a table from, either. Applying racial/linguistic stereotypes, I’d guess those people are all citizens. But I’ve never verified it. And doing so would be an additional burden to me. > > I’m told that in recent years the flooring guys are often illegal, too. (Someone you might hire to refinish your hardwood floor, for instance) The older Americans are retiring, and they are being replaced by Vietnamese immigrants, some legal, some not. Who asks the floor guy for papers? > > My point isn’t that people are actively seeking illegal labor. My point is that there are lots of jobs out there that don’t always require people to have an employer subject to e-verify or anything else. Well I guess you wouldn’t if you didn’t care about hiring a person that was legally here in this country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-actually-get-rid-of-nearly-all-unauthorized-immigrants/750304.md?page=7)