# We can "chip" violent criminals to make them incapable of aggression. Should we? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221 "2014-08-22T18:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/41 "2014-08-24T00:32:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Voting isn’t a crime, but we take that right away from convicted felons. > > Taking away the ability to use any aggression from someone who was convicted of criminal aggression – and with his own permission as a sentencing alternative – makes perfectly good sense. In practice that mostly means taking the ability to be aggressive (or to vote) away from poor men with dark skin. It occurs to me that one result might be an increase race and class violence, since there’ll likely be entire neighborhoods full of people most of whom can’t raise a hand in their own defense if someone wants to go there and just beat people to death for fun. Thugs who _won’t_ get chips, since they are white or well off or a cop. The net time some cop decides to kill a black guy there won’t be any protests, since the cops can just wade in and the protesters will fall over in convulsions while the cops beat on them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/42 "2014-08-24T02:53:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In practice that mostly means taking the ability to be aggressive (or to vote) away from poor men with dark skin. . . . We are stipulating a voluntary process. If blacks – or any other subpopulation – feel they are targeted unfairly, they would probably refuse to accept it. The fact that our justice system is, today, unfair isn’t a meaningful rebuttal to such a proposal. It’s a problem that desperately needs fixing, but it’s a different problem. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/43 "2014-08-24T04:23:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > We are stipulating a voluntary process. If blacks – or any other subpopulation – feel they are targeted unfairly, they would probably refuse to accept it. > > The fact that our justice system is, today, unfair isn’t a meaningful rebuttal to such a proposal. It’s a problem that desperately needs fixing, but it’s a different problem. Sure, it’s a DIFFERENT problem, but like the sex offender registry issue, it’s a problem that needs to be solved BEFORE the chip plan can be implemented successfully, hence a legitimate issue. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/44 "2014-08-24T04:56:01Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Sure, it’s a DIFFERENT problem, but like the sex offender registry issue, it’s a problem that needs to be solved BEFORE the chip plan can be implemented successfully, hence a legitimate issue. I’m not sure that’s been demonstrated. Setting pre-conditions like that is a pretty sure way to prevent any progress from being made. (Just as one example, it brings to mind the Republican viewpoint that comprehensive immigration reform must wait until the border has been secured. They refuse to accept any other considerations until their own specific demand has been met first.) It creates an interlocking thornbush of demands. It’s a case of “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” Ideally, all problems would be addressed, immediately, and with sufficient resources to provide real solutions. In practice, an improvement in any one aspect of the many (and I’m not belittling this!) problems with the criminal justice system is, at least to that degree, a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/45 "2014-08-24T06:05:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > We are stipulating a voluntary process. If blacks – or any other subpopulation – feel they are targeted unfairly, they would probably refuse to accept it. Hardly. They’d just be hit with enough pressure that they “submitted voluntarily”; “get the chip or face life in prison”. Constantly stomping on black people (and non-whites and the poor in general) is and always has been a _central function_ of the American justice system; they’ve never had the ability to just opt out. > [@Trinopus](#): > > The fact that our justice system is, today, unfair isn’t a meaningful rebuttal to such a proposal. It’s a problem that desperately needs fixing, but it’s a different problem. Not really, since it strongly affects would _would actually happen_, as opposed to what would happen in an ideal world. But then in an ideal world there wouldn’t be any violent criminals in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/46 "2014-08-24T06:48:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > We are stipulating a voluntary process. If blacks – or any other subpopulation – feel they are targeted unfairly, they would probably refuse to accept it. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > On second conviction for most violent crimes, the chip implantation is mandatory upon release from prison and lasts for five years. On first convictions of violent rape and any degree of murder, the chip implantation is mandatory and lifetime; the same is true of one’s third conviction of lesser violent crimes. Not quite a voluntary process according to the OP. Also, I’d only support such a technology if the society had a proven 100 year track record of fastidiousness with respect to civil liberties as well as an iron grip on its collective id. Certain Scandinavian countries might qualify, but the US would certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![here\_and\_there](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@here\_and\_there](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/here_and_there)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/47 "2014-08-24T10:48:11Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Ideally, all problems would be addressed, immediately, and with sufficient resources to provide real solutions. In practice, an improvement in any one aspect of the many (and I’m not belittling this!) problems with the criminal justice system is, at least to that degree, a good thing. But this “chip” idea looks more like solving one problem and creating another, bigger, problem. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/48 "2014-08-24T20:22:58Z")
> [@here\_and\_there](#): > > But this “chip” idea looks more like solving one problem and creating another, bigger, problem. That’s certainly possible…but… I don’t see it. What is the bigger problem, specifically? Two problems seem to have been suggested here: 1) a sub-population of people who are helpless, because they can’t use violence even in self-defense; 2) an exploitive government will use the technology to suppress dissent. I don’t consider either of these meaningful. We already have a large subpopulation that is incapable of self-defense: the handicapped, the elderly, children. They seem to get by all right in our society without being assaulted at every turn. The new population of chipped felons would simply be treated as a different kind of handicapped persons. (And…if not, if the general population took up the habit of chipper-bashing as a customary pastime, then the experiment would be seen to have failed and would be discontinued. We can’t know until it’s tried. You can’t argue against an idea on a priori grounds. “Let’s raise the minimum wage.” “No! Millions of employers would refuse to honor it, and criminal black-market activity would overwhelm the economy.” Yeah…maybe. No one actually knows that.) The exploitive government used monitoring of telephone call data, not to suppress dissent, but to explore for terrorism. We, the People, didn’t like it, and made them cut it back. If chipping started to be a threat to our liberties, we’d do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/49 "2014-08-25T17:13:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Will the chip prevent somebody from ordering a violent crime be committed? A lot of criminal leaders rarely commit acts of violence personally. They just tell their subordinates to go kill somebody. I’m going to say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/50 "2014-08-25T17:19:08Z")
> [@Lo-Slung\_Denim](#): > > It doesn’t address any of the long-standing causes of violent crime in society. > It takes attention and resources away from trying to address the causes of violent crime in society. > It doesn’t address non-violent crime. > There’s no point. I’ll grant points A & B, but who cares whether whether the chip addresses non-violent crime? I have measures on my computer to protect me against malware; they do jack-diggly to shield me against muggers, but that doesn’t make them “pointless.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/51 "2014-08-25T17:39:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s certainly possible…but… I don’t see it. What is the bigger problem, specifically? > > Two problems seem to have been suggested here: 1) a sub-population of people who are helpless, because they can’t use violence even in self-defense; 2) an exploitive government will use the technology to suppress dissent. > > I don’t consider either of these meaningful. > > We already have a large subpopulation that is incapable of self-defense: the handicapped, the elderly, children. They seem to get by all right in our society without being assaulted at every turn. The new population of chipped felons would simply be treated as a different kind of handicapped persons. No, they won’t. The handicapped, the elderly, children-these are traditionally looked upon as groups that deserve our protection. This status is not generally visited upon those that are released from prison, and I suspect that if violence is visited upon someone who is implanted with one of these chips the first thought through many a person’s mind, _even if that person is an officer of the law_, might be “I wonder what he did this time?” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/52 "2014-08-25T18:02:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, they won’t. The handicapped, the elderly, children-these are traditionally looked upon as groups that deserve our protection. This status is not generally visited upon those that are released from prison, and I suspect that if violence is visited upon someone who is implanted with one of these chips the first thought through many a person’s mind, _even if that person is an officer of the law_, might be “I wonder what he did this time?” Assuming that the chip works as advertised, the cop should know that the victim didn’t do anything to merit a beatdown, as the chip would prevent it. Which is not to say that you don’t have a point. Even when I am not wearing my Evil!Skald hat, I am disinclined to trust a randomly-chosen beat officer not to be unduly violent. I worry less about random persons tracking down chipped offenders than I would cops abusing them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/53 "2014-08-25T18:31:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Assuming that the chip works as advertised, the cop should know that the victim didn’t do anything to merit a beatdown, as the chip would prevent it. For the cops, just _being_ black or poor is often enough reason to merit a beatdown, or an execution. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/54 "2014-08-25T19:15:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For the cops, just _being_ black or poor is often enough reason to merit a beatdown, or an execution. There is this. I wouldn’t mind seeing a poll of police officers to see if they think that people that have left the penal system have fully paid their dues. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/55 "2014-08-25T19:19:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is this. I wouldn’t mind seeing a poll of police officers to see if they think that people that have left the penal system have fully paid their dues. It does occur to me that, in the likely case of a cop bashing a chipped crook, the cop would at least have a harder time justifying his action. Especially if the chip logs each time it goes off, which seems likely. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/56 "2014-08-25T19:34:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It does occur to me that, in the likely case of a cop bashing a chipped crook, the cop would at least have a harder time justifying his action. Especially if the chip logs each time it goes off, which seems likely. I’m not talking about a cop bashing a chipped crook. I’m talking about a cop responding to a report that a chipped _former_ crook might be in danger, deciding how high it falls on his list of priorities. I’m talking about bystanders being willing to help out a chipped _former_ crook that cannot defend himself. I’m talking about a too-large segment of society that includes some law enforcement personnel that think that people in prison should damn well stay in prison, so whatever happens to them on the outside is somehow their own damn fault. Got a chip for that? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/57 "2014-08-25T20:41:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not talking about a cop bashing a chipped crook. I’m talking about a cop responding to a report that a chipped _former_ crook might be in danger, deciding how high it falls on his list of priorities. I’m talking about bystanders being willing to help out a chipped _former_ crook that cannot defend himself. I’m talking about a too-large segment of society that includes some law enforcement personnel that think that people in prison should damn well stay in prison, so whatever happens to them on the outside is somehow their own damn fault. > > Got a chip for that? :: slips on Cobra-Commander mask, goes into Evil mode :: Rhymer Enterprises does not support the use of anti-violence technology. Why, our Murder for Hire division alone could be crippled by it. Additionally, using the pacification chips on rapists is inappropriate; that is what sharks are for. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/58 "2014-08-25T20:50:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > :: slips on Cobra-Commander mask, goes into Evil mode :: > > ::: snip :::: Additionally, using the pacification chips on rapists is inappropriate; that is what sharks are for. Finally, something I can agree with you whole heartily on… W00T!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/59 "2014-08-25T20:56:20Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Finally, something I can agree with you whole heartily on… W00T!!! 😃 Yeah! Open season on criminals after they’ve served their sentences! Screw any attempts at rehabilitation and just rip their guts out, yay!! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221/60 "2014-08-25T21:27:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not talking about a cop bashing a chipped crook. I’m talking about a cop responding to a report that a chipped _former_ crook might be in danger, deciding how high it falls on his list of priorities. I’m talking about bystanders being willing to help out a chipped _former_ crook that cannot defend himself. I’m talking about a too-large segment of society that includes some law enforcement personnel that think that people in prison should damn well stay in prison, so whatever happens to them on the outside is somehow their own damn fault. . . . How are all of those problems dealt with right now, when felons have served their time in prison and are released? Every single issue you just named already exists with ex-cons, people on parole, people on the sex-offender registry list, etc. Why would a non-violence chip make the problem any different? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-can-chip-violent-criminals-to-make-them-incapable-of-aggression-should-we/696221.md?page=4)