# "We can't charge the client" - AUGH!!!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 27, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649 "2009-02-27T12:10:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/21 "2009-02-27T18:02:35Z")
> [@Aangelica](#):
>
> If they don’t want the client to know about the time, all they have to do is _exclude it from the bill._ In either case, the person doing the work still gets their work recorded for posterity.
See my post above- there’s no reason you can’t record your work for posterity yourself.
Assuming the OP’s firm uses a billing system like ours, he/she should probably be doing that anyway. For me, it’s as easy as recording my billing in Excel as I go, and simply copying and pasting it to the billing entry system at the end of the day.
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### Author:  [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/22 "2009-02-27T18:15:16Z")
> [@Aangelica](#):
>
> I do client billing at my firm occasionally. There are any number of childishly easy ways for billable time to be recorded and not actually charged to the client. There’s no real reason at all for a partner to tell someone to record work that’s legitimately billable as anything other than client-charged work.
When I was a billing attorney, I had to justify every write-off to my supervisor (and on occasion, I had to write off _his_ time, which was always a fun exercise in diplomacy). If the time doesn’t get recorded and thus doesn’t need to be written off, you don’t have to justify it, and it looks like you have a more profitable client than you actually do. Of course, your paralegal just got screwed so you wouldn’t have to have an uncomfortable conversation about the quality of your clients. :dubious:
It’s a sucky thing to ask for, and probably also against firm policy (at least it was at my firm - the rule was that everyone was supposed to write down all billable time, and it was up to the billing attorney to decide how much of it to actually bill the client for).
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### Author:  [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/23 "2009-02-27T18:35:53Z")
I’m in the same boat as the OP. I also work in support services at a fairly sizeable New York law firm (which makes me a second-class citizen, I guess, according to **msmith537** ). We’ve had layoffs, of both support staff and lawyers, and there may (probably will) be more. Times are tough.
I too hear a lot of “we can’t bill the client.” Now, if my hours are being recorded, and it’s acknowledged that I’m working hard, and doing a lot of overtime, if the firm wants to eat the cost of my overtime, I don’t really care. Not my concern as long as the money is in my paycheck.
But in our current circumstances, the firm is not willing to eat costs. And my department is getting a lot of pressure to do uncompensated overtime. It’s all very deniable and subtle, of course (this firm has an employment law practice group – they’re not stupid), but it’s there. The firm \*knows \*they’re demanding more of us than can be done during the regular workday. And yet the work must be done. And we are absolutely forbidden to put in for overtime unless it’s client-billable. So we’ve got people working on weekends and in the evenings, and they’re not getting paid for it.
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/24 "2009-02-27T18:54:35Z")
IANAL, but I’ve known a few, and I don’t think former law-firm associates - who are expected to put in massive overtime, whether billable or not I don’t know - are going to be sympathetic to anyone connected with the profession who _isn’t_ willing to be taken advantage of. It’s come to be understood as the way they show their commitment to the firm and the profession - “professional” or not.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/25 "2009-02-27T20:46:04Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#):
>
> I’m in the same boat as the OP. I also work in support services at a fairly sizeable New York law firm (which makes me a second-class citizen, I guess, according to **msmith537** ). We’ve had layoffs, of both support staff and lawyers, and there may (probably will) be more. Times are tough.
>
> I too hear a lot of “we can’t bill the client.” Now, if my hours are being recorded, and it’s acknowledged that I’m working hard, and doing a lot of overtime, if the firm wants to eat the cost of my overtime, I don’t really care. Not my concern as long as the money is in my paycheck.
>
> But in our current circumstances, the firm is not willing to eat costs. And my department is getting a lot of pressure to do uncompensated overtime. It’s all very deniable and subtle, of course (this firm has an employment law practice group – they’re not stupid), but it’s there. The firm \*knows \*they’re demanding more of us than can be done during the regular workday. And yet the work must be done. And we are absolutely forbidden to put in for overtime unless it’s client-billable. So we’ve got people working on weekends and in the evenings, and they’re not getting paid for it.
Hear here. I work in a sort of a hippie law firm now, and we are doing OK financially so far, so I’m not rocking the boat. But I am the most experienced paralegal in my practice group, and I do a TON of non-billable work. I do case management, I play surrogate Jewish mother to my boss and run reports to make sure he’s not missing any deadlines, I train and mentor less experienced staff, and I’ve written a freaking manual on our docketing system. None of that time, obviously, is billable to clients.
I’ve never been given a billable hours quota, and so far nobody has given me crap about how much non-billable work I do. But in a past job, I was thrown under the bus by my boss; when a colleague quit on short notice, I was expected to make sure her (quite considerable) workload was covered, either in-house or by outside counsel, and when we hired 2 people to replace her, I was expected to train and mentor them. My boss clearly told me that my first priority was to make sure that the lines of business we supported had their work done on time, whether we had to farm it to outside counsel or not.
And yet, when my case prep levels dropped for a couple of months because I was doing all this extra work, which by rights my boss should have been doing, I got slammed for it on my evaluation. And we had been told not to work overtime, period. So what exactly was I supposed to do?
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/26 "2009-02-27T20:55:42Z")
> [@Aangelica](#):
>
> This is particularly true with law firm jobs like the OP has.
>
> I do client billing at my firm occasionally. There are any number of childishly easy ways for billable time to be recorded and not actually charged to the client. There’s no real reason at all for a partner to tell someone to record work that’s legitimately billable as anything other than client-charged work.
>
> Hell, several of the ways you can record billable time and not charge the client for it are great public relations with clients. “Look at all these hours our crack staff put in on your matter that we’ve chosen not to charge you for! You get more work for your litigation dollar out of Our Firm!”
>
> If they don’t want the client to know about the time, all they have to do is _exclude it from the bill._ In either case, the person doing the work still gets their work recorded for posterity.
The problem for the partner who does this comes from within the firm. Law firms will generally monitor a partner’s “realization rate,” which is the percentage of amounts billed to his clients that actually gets collected. If he writes off a lot of time, he gets downgraded by the firm, essentially for using the firm’s resources inefficiently. Hence the pressure upon the firm’s resources (i.e., associates and staff) to get work done in as short a time as possible.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/27 "2009-02-27T20:58:21Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#):
>
> And yet, when my case prep levels dropped for a couple of months because I was doing all this extra work, which by rights my boss should have been doing, I got slammed for it on my evaluation. And we had been told not to work overtime, period. So what exactly was I supposed to do?
You were supposed to work overtime without getting paid for it.
What? You know that’s what they wanted. I know it is illegal, that’s why they didn’t spell it out for you..
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/28 "2009-02-27T21:27:09Z")
> [@jtgain](#):
>
> You were supposed to work overtime without getting paid for it.
> What? You know that’s what they wanted. I know it is illegal, that’s why they didn’t spell it out for you.
I worked in a subunit of the freaking _employment law department_ of a Fortune 100 corporation. I had 2 layers of managers above my immediate supervisor tell me that they pay employees for all hours worked, and that they consider paralegals to be nonexempt employees.
So I pretty much think my boss was in denial about how much time it takes to train new employees and manage an additional person’s caseload (about 800 active immigration matters) while the replacments were being trained. Either that, or she just hated me and wanted to send me down the river.
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### Author:  [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/29 "2009-02-27T21:48:13Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#):
>
> IANAL, but I’ve known a few, and I don’t think former law-firm associates - who are expected to put in massive overtime, whether billable or not I don’t know - are going to be sympathetic to anyone connected with the profession who _isn’t_ willing to be taken advantage of. It’s come to be understood as the way they show their commitment to the firm and the profession - “professional” or not.
Then law firm associates should have their heads, at least, if not their consciences, examined.
A first-year associate at a major firm in New York makes more money than, for example, a U.S. District Court judge, starting the day after they graduate from law school. That’s before they’ve even passed the bar exam. Maybe even after they’ve \*failed \*the bar exam the first time they took it. They are competing for a small (relative to the number of first-year associates) number of partnerships. That’s their compensation – the chance of a partnership. And that’s why they’re committed to the firm. Because they hope one day to be a partner in the firm, and make staggering amounts of money.
To expect support staff to have the same committment is to be so self-centered that it demonstrates total contempt for said support staff. But then most lawyers, like **msmith 537** , think we’re second-class citizens anyway.
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### Author:  [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/30 "2009-02-27T21:50:57Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#):
>
> I worked in a subunit of the freaking _employment law department_ of a Fortune 100 corporation. I had 2 layers of managers above my immediate supervisor tell me that they pay employees for all hours worked, and that they consider paralegals to be nonexempt employees.
Yeah, I know the drill. If you’re working in an employment law department, they know exactly how to say all the right things and create just the right paper trail to prove that they’re in total compliance with all applicable labor laws, and at the same time force non-exempt employees to work all kinds of unpaid overtime.
Sucks, doesn’t it? I’m in the same boat. And this isn’t the time to rock the boat.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/31 "2009-02-27T22:00:01Z")
> [@Saintly Loser](#):
>
> I’m in the same boat as the OP. I also work in support services at a fairly sizeable New York law firm (which makes me a second-class citizen, I guess, according to msmith537).
It the culture of the law firm, yes, it does. The business of the law firm is selling legal services, not building Concordance databases or stamping Bates numbers onto productions. Those are supporting functions of the core business which, in many cases, can be outsourced. The attorneys are all JDs while I’m willing to bet many if not most of your peers are BAs who “maybe thought about law school” at one point in their lives. How much does your “Director of Lit Support” make in relationship to the most senior partners? What is the highest he can rise in the organization?
What do you think the definition of “second class citizen” is? You are expected to work the same long hours as an attorney but you don’t get anywhere near their comp nor do you have the same opportunities for advancement. Sounds pretty second class to me.
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/32 "2009-02-28T00:08:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> What do you think the definition of “second class citizen” is? You are expected to work the same long hours as an attorney but you don’t get anywhere near their comp nor do you have the same opportunities for advancement. Sounds pretty second class to me.
I agree with the definition of second class. The dishonesty comes when the all-mighty JD then expects a level of investment from said 2nd class citizen commensurate with his/her own. It’s a crock of shit and if lawyers had to answer to a governing body not composed of a bunch of other lawyers, it wouldn’t be tolerated. The various bar associations and their complicity in vile behaviors by lawyers and law firms are one of the many reasons why lawyers are hated as a class.
One of the interesting things that may come out of this economic crisis is a realization that this country needs about half the lawyers it has and that the ones we keep aren’t worth what we pay them.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/33 "2009-02-28T03:12:31Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#):
>
> One of the interesting things that may come out of this economic crisis is a realization that this country needs about half the lawyers it has and that the ones we keep aren’t worth what we pay them.
When the economy is down, demand for lots of legal services goes _up_. I work in workers’ compensation defense. Guess what always accompanies layoffs? Lots and lots of employment-related claims, some legit, some fictional.
Some people realize that they may as well go after all the unpaid overtime they’re entitled to. Others realize that their low back strain might get them a little free money.
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/34 "2009-02-28T04:11:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> When the economy is down, demand for lots of legal services goes _up_.
Yes, but those are typically performance-based service areas. You (or the partners if you aren’t one of the annointed ones) are paid based on winning. M&A specifically and Business law generally is getting _hammered_ right now (except of course for Bankruptcies). These are also the guys that get giant fees regardless of whether the deal goes through (or was a good idea in the first place).
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/35 "2009-02-28T04:20:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> If the firm makes a profit despite writing off chunks of billable work, that’s their business. It’s the managing partner’s job to decide whether a client is worth doing free work for, not yours.
>
> Unless “devaluing your time” cuts into your paycheck, suck it up.
Ohhhhh. You’re “non-exempt.” If you can’t bill the partners for your overtime, you’re screwed. Read you’re contract. You can bet the partners did.
I worked for a company for which my father had been general counsel. I came home one day sputtering mad about some workplace problem I had no control over. He laughed at me and said, “I wrote that contract.” ☹
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/36 "2009-02-28T05:54:13Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#):
>
> Yes, but those are typically performance-based service areas. You (or the partners if you aren’t one of the annointed ones) are paid based on winning. M&A specifically and Business law generally is getting _hammered_ right now (except of course for Bankruptcies). These are also the guys that get giant fees regardless of whether the deal goes through (or was a good idea in the first place).
It’s not performance based. Civil litigation defense is straight hourly billing. Of course, if you’re not winning, the client will take their business elsewhere, but we get paid win or lose.
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Ohhhhh. You’re “non-exempt.” If you can’t bill the partners for your overtime, you’re screwed. Read you’re contract. You can bet the partners did.
I don’t put in overtime so it doesn’t bother me. We do employment law, and the firm doesn’t want to be paying (or paying to defend) unpaid overtime claims.
When I do put in overtime (which is when I feel like it, and extremely rare) I don’t expect to be compensated.
Anyway… _contract_?
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/37 "2009-02-28T06:10:19Z")
(snort) Okay, I assumed you were of the minority of office help who actually HAS a contract. My bad. ☹
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### Author:  [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/38 "2009-02-28T06:34:35Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#):
>
> I agree with the definition of second class. The dishonesty comes when the all-mighty JD then expects a level of investment from said 2nd class citizen commensurate with his/her own. It’s a crock of shit and if lawyers had to answer to a governing body not composed of a bunch of other lawyers, it wouldn’t be tolerated. The various bar associations and their complicity in vile behaviors by lawyers and law firms are one of the many reasons why lawyers are hated as a class.
>
> One of the interesting things that may come out of this economic crisis is a realization that this country needs about half the lawyers it has and that the ones we keep aren’t worth what we pay them.
Get some: :rolleyes:
A little more: :rolleyes::rolleyes:
I love it how you seem to be mad at lawyers for not being in a dead-end career. Yeesh with a capital “yeesh.” And sheesh.
And what’s all this “what we pay them” business, kemosabe? “Society” has a vote and decides how much to pay lawyers? Or maybe what happens is that the people for whom lawyers provide services decide how much lawyers get paid. Yeah, that sounds right.
Now, go get smarter or quietier please, thx.
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### Author:  [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/39 "2009-02-28T06:42:32Z")
> [@Orr\_G](#):
>
> a paralegal friend of mine (that’s her job title - the friendship is on the up-and-up)
Ha!
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### Author:  [@Tehanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tehanu)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-cant-charge-the-client-augh/487649/40 "2009-02-28T13:31:22Z")
I work in lit support at a firm in NYC, and I do bill my time. I have a billable hour minimum that I must meet each year in order to show my productivity, as well as to earn any pay raise that is offered to my group.
I agree that ultimately it is about the business relationship maintained between the partner and his client. I also agree with what was said about properly recording the time and then having the partner write it off. I understand the reality, however, is that he wants to sweep the costs under the carpet to polish up his own standing in the firm. I also understand that partner is subject to pressures from the industry, meaning he needs to keep his client(s) and not have he/them depart for other firms.
I am actually heading into work right now (on a Saturday morning) to continue working on this task that “we can’t charge the client” for. Over the past 2 days I’ve billed 10 hours on this project (and I’ve worked hard on the task during those 10 hours). I need/want the credit for the work. If the partner is unhappy with the fact that I have entered time into the system for the work I’ve done on behalf of his client, he can write it off. If we have to have an unpleasant conversation about my time when the proformas come out, so be it.
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