# We Couldn't have seen this coming... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846 "2010-06-20T05:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/41 "2010-06-21T01:00:56Z")
> [@Heavy](#): > > I voted for Obama and if he gets us out of both of the cheney/bush wars I will vote for him again. Yes. And, OP, just wtf are you jabbering about? Not that I really care, I’m just just bored. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/42 "2010-06-21T01:08:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Eight years of George Bush have lowered my standards. I no longer insist that the President make the country better. It’s now sufficient that the President doesn’t make the country worse. > > So even if Obama doesn’t end the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, I’ll give him some credit if he doesn’t start any new wars. Sadly true, I’m afraid. So why hasn’t anybody welcomed **Happy Poster** back yet? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/43 "2010-06-21T01:16:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But there’s a hell of a lot more an executive can do in a disaster like this. You’re right. It sucks that we rejected the engineer-scientist-businessman-philospher presidential candidate and voted for Obama instead. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/44 "2010-06-21T01:22:50Z")
The engineer-scientist-businessman-philospher presidential candidate with the oil leak fixer in his garage. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/45 "2010-06-21T02:46:25Z")
I’m sure glad you guys cut all this slack for Bush over Hurricane Katrina. I mean, what does he know about hurricanes? He was no meteorologist! ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/46 "2010-06-21T03:14:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And do you think he’s sat on a beach blowing his clarinet, inbetween slurping on a pina colada now? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/47 "2010-06-21T03:17:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What Obama did do is announce a commission “similar” to the Challenger commission, to look at what went wrong and what needs to change in the future. I put “similar” in quotes because, while the Challenger commission was top-heavy with actual scientists and engineers, Obama put together a commission that looks like him - [policy experts, not engineers or scientists.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100620/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_commission) He’s got one Ph.D scientist on the commission, but he’s a physicist. He’s got someone who’s supposed to know something about cleanup, but that person is also a committed environmental activist who can be counted on to be heavily biased. The rest of the commission is just politicians and policy guys. I expect it to come back with ‘recommendations’ that are just rubber-stamped political proposals for things Obama already wants - much like his deficit commission. For a guy who has such a long list of what Obama should be doing, and who is pretending to have some actual understanding of the whole situation, your recommendation here is either evidence that you don’t know much about it at all, or that you are deliberately misrepresenting the situation. It’s good that you put “similar” in quotes, because that’s pretty the only way of comparing the Challenger disaster and the oil spill. First, as **Little Nemo** pointed out, the technical problems of space travel are considerably from those of oil drilling. Second, and perhaps more important, the reason that the Challenger commission needed those scientific and technical experts was precisely that a government agency (NASA) was the one implementing the scientific and technical knowledge in the execution of the space program. Do you see and understand the difference here? In the space program, the government agency deals not only with the policy issues, but with the direct oversight and coordination of the scientific and engineering efforts. While there are plenty of private contractors doing work for NASA, the people overseeing the scientific and engineering aspects of the projects, and making it all come together, are NASA employees. These NASA employees actually make sure the shuttle works, that it takes off and lands, that all the tech stuff comes together for a successful project. So, in order to prevent another Challenger incident, the government needed to address both organizational _and_ scientific and technical issues. In the oil industry, by contrast, all that technical stuff is directly in the hands of the private companies. While those companies are subject to (some) regulations and standards imposed by the government, the companies themselves are the ones who do all the science and engineering stuff. (The fact that this is the case, by the way, is precisely because free market fetishists like you insist that they will do it better.) The private companies know how to do this stuff properly. They know how to drill wells and monitor them in such a way that oil rigs don’t explode. The internal memos made public over the past few weeks show that there were people within BP who knew there were problems, and who warned that the company needed to implement better safeguards, but that these people were pushed aside by those who saw the bottom line as more important. Of course, you know this already, because you’ve been keeping up, right? The government doesn’t need scientists and engineers to tell the companies how to prevent these disasters, because the companies know how to do that. What the government needs is a set of policies and regulations that ensure that these companies are motivated to actually implement the scientific and engineering procedures that will prevent fuck-ups like this. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/48 "2010-06-21T03:46:03Z")
Meh, I can’t get too worked up over Obama since the Republicans could only come up with a way past his prime presidential candidate and a MILF for a VP candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/49 "2010-06-21T03:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure glad you guys cut all this slack for Bush over Hurricane Katrina. I mean, what does he know about hurricanes? He was no meteorologist! Face facts, this is not another Katrina - this is another Exxon Valdez. There was no city devastated by the oil spill. There are not thousands of people living in the streets. The only equivalence is among conservatives who are desperate to create one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/50 "2010-06-21T04:38:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Face facts, this is not another Katrina - this is another Exxon Valdez. There was no city devastated by the oil spill. There are not thousands of people living in the streets. And Obama didn’t fire the competent leadership of BP and replace them with deliberately incompetent cronies the way Bush did with FEMA. They wanted as big a disaster as they could get, in order to “prove” that “government doesn’t work”. I doubt that Obama is rooting for the oil in this. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/51 "2010-06-21T04:47:46Z")
> [@](#): > > They wanted as big a disaster as they could get, in order to “prove” that “government doesn’t work”. Are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/52 "2010-06-21T05:20:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you serious? Of course. The Right is largely pro-disaster for one reason or another. The neocons wanted “another Pearl Harbor” as an excuse for war and to push their domestic agenda; they got one. The “government is bad” types wanted a disaster like Katrina they could blame on government being innately bad, and they got one and did indeed try to pin all the blame on government. The “starve the beast” people wanted an economic disaster as an excuse to slash government spending; they got such a disaster but fortunately they aren’t in a position to follow through, and it’s not as big as they wanted. And of course the Christian apocalyptics cheer for everything from nuclear war to global warming. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/53 "2010-06-21T05:44:50Z")
Ernst Stavro Cheney? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/54 "2010-06-21T06:03:07Z")
> [@](#): > > The “government is bad” types wanted a disaster like Katrina they could blame on government being innately bad, and they got one and did indeed try to pin all the blame on government. But the “government is bad” types don’t want to be the government figures that gets blamed for the screw-ups. George Bush and Michael Brown weren’t hoping for a natural disaster so they could demonstrate how incompetent they were. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/55 "2010-06-21T06:17:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But the “government is bad” types don’t want to be the government figures that gets blamed for the screw-ups. George Bush and Michael Brown weren’t hoping for a natural disaster so they could demonstrate how incompetent they were. Michael Brown didn’t hire Michael Brown. More generally, there’s something to what **Der Trihs** says – “Starve the Beast” is actually a very popular argument in conservative circles incredibly enough – but I think his stance is impressionistic. For a deeper view of the Republican Party’s embrace of incompetence, consider the [Three Presidential Curses of DeLong](http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/03/is-michael-steele-the-best-possible-chairman-for-the-republican-national-committee.html): > [@Brad DeLong](#): > > To understand the Republican Party today, you have to recognize that right now it is bespelled by three curses: > > ``` > * The curse of Ronald Reagan: it believes that over the long haul somehow America can tax like Calvin Coolidge and spend like Lyndon Johnson and everything will come out fine because it is morning in America. > * The curse of Richard Nixon: it believes that the purpose of politics is to win high-paid jobs with no heavy lifting involved and to humiliate your political adversaries, rather than to make a better country and a better world, and so anything goes. > * The curse of Barry Goldwater: it believes that the big threat to liberty comes from government attempts to enhance equality of opportunity, and so the Republican Party must abandon its historic commitment to equality of opportunity. > > ``` > > The Republican Party may never again have a legitimate place in American civil life. But if it does, it will only be because brave men and women working within it lift these three curses. Interestingly, the problem isn’t with these Presidents so much as what modern Republicans gleened from them. After all Reagan raised taxes multiple times. Nixon valued competence. And Goldwater himself probably wasn’t a bigot, though he favored repeal of the Civil Rights Act. Anyway, the curse of Nixon is probably most salient here. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/56 "2010-06-21T14:28:50Z")
I’m disappointed that Obama did not fly into the gulf and board an aircraft carrier to announce “mission accomplished!” It’s really too bad that he did not mouth useless platitudes like “git er done” and “America first”. Or perhaps one of his minions could have advised that the problems could have been solved by duct tape and plastic wrap, or by Americans going shopping more. For this is what makes a true leader. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/57 "2010-06-21T14:33:33Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Now Una, we both know that the ocean floor would have sealed itself up if only Obama had emoted more, or if he waived his magic leadership wand. 'Scuse me while I whip this out… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/58 "2010-06-21T15:52:06Z")
Would that be the “junk shot”, then? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/59 "2010-06-21T18:49:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m sure glad you guys cut all this slack for Bush over Hurricane Katrina. I mean, what does he know about hurricanes? He was no meteorologist! We didn’t ask Bush to stand on the coast of LA and drive off the hurricane with the power of his mind, we asked him to appoint competent people to run the Government organizations that are required to fix the damage after it happens. THAT is where Bush failed us and is rightly called to the mat for it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846/60 "2010-06-21T19:51:27Z")
So, does Steven Chu bet on the nags? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-couldnt-have-seen-this-coming/543846.md?page=2)