# We don't want better relations with Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 8, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748 "2017-07-08T14:49:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/41 "2017-07-09T19:34:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > No, that’s not the argument I was making. By all means, the US should act in its own national interests with respect to Russia. > > But don’t try to make the argument that the US are automatically the good guys and have moral superiority over other nations. > > As my response and **AK84** ’s suggest, if you are trying to gain support of other nations for your policies, that kind of claim for American moral exceptionalism will be met with scepticism, to say the least. That’s fair, but in comparison to Russia we can still claim superiority in that regard. Yet we have lost ground in that comparison, by our own ill-advised actions though, not because of anything Russia has done to improve their position. **AK84** provided the list of nations that would like to see Russia gain more power relative to the US, that list speaks volumes. Should Canada be on that list? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/42 "2017-07-09T19:38:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is the fascinating argument that because of the mistakes we’ve made in the past, not to mention continue making, that we should cede Eurasia to Russian control. Nicely dissected. The argument is a poor one, but it’s all they have. > [@TriPolar](#): > > So when and where did pursuit of an appeasement policy arise that is being voiced here? It arose in Russia and is parroted by those in the pay of Russia. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/43 "2017-07-09T19:56:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Fair enough. If you say "The US national interest demands that we take action against Russia for the following reasons " and then give a list of reasons, people in other nations will likely pay attention. > > But if you lead off with “The United States is a moral leader amongst nations and has never done the sort of thing Russia has done” you’ll get yawns and probably hostility from a large portion of the globe. > > Which is the more effective argument, do you think? In addition to your first quote, I would also say that the interests of the United States align more closely with the interests of free states than those of russia. In a slight modification to your second, I would change the second phrase to “…and has not done the things that Russia has done, to the extent that russia has done them, and with the motivation that russia had when it did so.” The US, for all of its flaws, has been a moral leader, and has used its ability to project force to keep the world as a much more stable and peaceful place than it would be otherwise, IMHO. We’ve made mistakes, sure, and we have had some questionable motivations in some of our actions, but on the whole, the world is much better off looking to the US for leadership than to russia. We meddle, but we meddle for the theoretical purpose of making things more stable. Whether we are successful, whether we make mistakes, or whether some of our actions get co-opted by corrupt people with less than noble intent, our overall intention is to prevent wars, both international and civil. The US actually does do things for purely altruistic reasons. Russia’s meddling has a different intent. Their meddling in our election was not with the intent of increasing stability. Their annexing of crimea was not done in order to decrease strife. There is little altruism to be found in the actions of Putin. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/44 "2017-07-09T20:13:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But if you lead off with “The United States is a moral leader amongst nations and has never done the sort of thing Russia has done” you’ll get yawns and probably hostility from a large portion of the globe. I agree. My OP can be fairly criticized for painting the US in glowing terms. We have failed in many ways, many times, in many parts of the world, and at home as well. But the heart of my argument remains, we cannot deal with Putin, he does not negotiate in good faith, he has made his intentions of expanding control over neighboring countries quite clear, and save for the kind of exceptions noted by **AK84** the rest of the world wants the US to stand against him, and yes, as well to do better ourselves in maintaining the ideals we have claimed to hold. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/45 "2017-07-09T20:31:29Z")
I was born in 1970. Grew up in the '80s. If anyone is going to try and convince me Russia isn’t all that bad, I like to laugh a lot too. Triple the sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/46 "2017-07-09T20:49:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The OP expressed hope that nothing will come of Trump-Putin talks. That is actually a pretty new stance for your average Democrat to take, hoping for talks to fail because little good is likely to come from them. It’s also a new position for a US President to go up against Putin with no experience, no preparation, and no agenda except to get his ego stroked. To paraphrase Keynes, when the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? At any rate, this combination was a recipe for Trump to have his ass handed to him by a superior negotiator and manipulator, and it looks like [that’s exactly what happened](http://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/341192-trump-talk-of-cyber-security-unit-with-russia-earns-mixed-reviews): > [@](#): > > Trump on Sunday tweeted that he talked with Putin during their meeting at the G-20 summit about forming an “impenetrable Cyber Security unit” to guard against issues such as election hacking. So yes… compared to an outcome that’s literally too stupid to make up, it’s eminently reasonable to hope for no outcome at all. Were you expecting something different? ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/47 "2017-07-09T21:02:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Russia hasn’t invaded Canada twice with the goal of conquest, nor openly bragged about how their intervention in a Canadian election helped to topple a Canadian government and install another party, more favourable to its interests. > > The US has done all that. > > How does that establish a good record of acting in the greater interests of your closest neighbour? You want to play that kind of game? Okay, then here’s Russia’s record: Started taking control of non-Russian peoples in the fifteenth century. Unbroken policy of power through conquest against the will of the local peoples from then, until 1990. Under Putin, began hostile conquest of Ukraine in 2014. Has never willingly let anyone go, and has never apologized for any of it’s actions, or any actions of even it’s worst leaders. If you are playing your math game about this, that’s over five hundred years of Russian expansionism/imperialism, to the United States only even existing for less than half that time. And the last time the US annexed another peoples’ country, was before World War 2. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/48 "2017-07-09T21:31:31Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Russia hasn’t invaded Canada twice with the goal of conquest, nor openly bragged about how their intervention in a Canadian election helped to topple a Canadian government and install another party, more favourable to its interests. > > The US has done all that. > > How does that establish a good record of acting in the greater interests of your closest neighbour? Let’s try _modern history_ re: ‘invasions.’ Two centuries ago doesn’t qualify. Nor is a President commenting he’d like to see one candidate beat another anywhere near on a par with hacking elections. But if you think it is, I have this President you’d just love to have running your country. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/49 "2017-07-09T21:42:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > …, I have this President you’d just love to have running your country. This is a BRILLIANT idea—drop all sanctions, and punish Russia for Ukraine and the US election-interference by exiling Putin and _forcing them to accept Trump in his place._ :):):):):):):):):)🙂 Of course, you’d have to _really_ exile Putin. Put him on a spaceship headed for Mars—that way he can be a national hero while being definitely, positively, and irreversibly gone. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/50 "2017-07-09T22:00:36Z")
Can’t send him to Hell, Satan is afraid he’d take over. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/51 "2017-07-10T06:55:41Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > You want to play that kind of game? > > Okay, then here’s Russia’s record: > > Started taking control of non-Russian peoples in the fifteenth century. Unbroken policy of power through conquest against the will of the local peoples from then, until 1990. Under Putin, began hostile conquest of Ukraine in 2014. > > Has never willingly let anyone go, and has never apologized for any of it’s actions, or any actions of even it’s worst leaders. > > If you are playing your math game about this, that’s over five hundred years of Russian expansionism/imperialism, to the United States only even existing for less than half that time. And the last time the US annexed another peoples’ country, was before World War 2. The bar being ‘annexed another country’ is disengenous in this math game. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/52 "2017-07-10T10:24:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Once again, the question is not, “Do we do unto others?” The question is, “Do we sit back and allow others to do unto us?” The essence of foreign relations is that you try to understand what’s behind someone else’s behavior. I don’t see a lot of analysis behind Putin’s conduct other than he’s just some kleptocratic thug who wants to rule the world. Putin is indeed a kleptocrat and a thug - absolutely no argument there. But if we want better relations with Russia the analysis ought to go deeper than that. You can’t just negotiate with the assumption of political/military/economic omnipotence. That said, I’m unfortunately afraid that the circumstances surrounding Trump’s ascent make that impossible. Putin has put American democracy in doubt and he has now created a situation in which one half of the country will view our own president as an illegitimate foreign puppet. Any ‘deal’ is going to require someone perceived as a credible broker, someone who can negotiate from a position of strength. That’s not the situation we’re in now. In the longer-term, the danger here is that Trump/GOP incompetence leads to an economic crisis or some other crisis that causes a backlash at the ballot box. The new regime will almost certainly be pressured into punishing Russia, which will likely only lead to a further escalation. We need some sort of face-saving deescalation that would involve simultaneous discussions on Russia agreeing to get out of Ukraine and the US discussing the future of its presence in Eastern Europe and around the rest of the Russian perimeter. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/53 "2017-07-10T10:26:54Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > You want to play that kind of game? > > Okay, then here’s Russia’s record: > > Started taking control of non-Russian peoples in the fifteenth century. Unbroken policy of power through conquest against the will of the local peoples from then, until 1990. Under Putin, began hostile conquest of Ukraine in 2014. > > Has never willingly let anyone go, and has never apologized for any of it’s actions, or any actions of even it’s worst leaders. > > If you are playing your math game about this, that’s over five hundred years of Russian expansionism/imperialism, to the United States only even existing for less than half that time. And the last time the US annexed another peoples’ country, was before World War 2. This is an overly-simplistic “history” if can be called that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/54 "2017-07-10T10:57:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is the fascinating argument that because of the mistakes we’ve made in the past, not to mention continue making, that we should cede Eurasia to Russian control. That’s not really the question to respond to. Rather, the real issue here is that actions have consequences. I’m amazed at how outraged we are at Russia’s meddling in the affairs of a country with deep historical ties yet fail to acknowledge that over the past 2 decades we’ve had hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of armed troops in countries that are 8000 miles away from our shores and with questionable cause at best. Does Russia have military operations in Mexico and Canada? No, but the United States has bases in Eastern Europe, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, and Japan, and it’s not like every one of these countries asked the US to be there, either. The United States effectively has Russia encircled – that’s not a matter of past misdeeds, that’s actual in-the-present\*\* fact\*\*. Cold War over or not, whether we understand it or agree with it or not, Russia has never ceased being suspicious of America and the West, **which includes two nations who have actually invaded Russia within the past 2 centuries**. As I’ve said before, economic sanctions aren’t always just sanctions; they can be regarded as acts of war if they endanger a regime. Putin’s regime has been endangered, which is why it’s no coincidence that he decided to undermine the American political system. He viewed it as taking an equal measure in response to a measure. I seriously doubt that exerting more force on Putin is going to work and will likely only make an already serious situation even more unstable. We need to remember the lessons of 1962. When JFK found out there were missiles in Cuba, he could have escalated, but that would have been disastrous. Instead, we removed missiles from Turkey, which was what the really Russians had wanted for a long time. Now people could have labeled that agreement as an act of appeasement but the reality is that behind the scenes diplomacy and understanding what the bad guy wanted is what probably saved humanity from mutually assured destruction. That’s an important lesson we seem to have forgotten. I don’t know how we resolve Russia’s internal problems caused by Putin. It’s probably best to give the situation time and to allow the Russians to resolve it themselves, to the extent that they can. There does seem to be a growing sense of push-back against him but that might not result in much. In the meantime, we could probably strike a bargain that would allow Putin to save face and stop meddling in Eastern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/55 "2017-07-10T11:32:52Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s fair, but in comparison to Russia we can still claim superiority in that regard. Yet we have lost ground in that comparison, by our own ill-advised actions though, not because of anything Russia has done to improve their position. **AK84** provided the list of nations that would like to see Russia gain more power relative to the US, **that list speaks volumes.** Should Canada be on that list? :rolleyes: “Speaks volumes”? Come on. Don’t be coy. Explain. You seem to think that countries which the US has a geo-political doisagreement with are evil incarnate. That is a very very stupid view to hold. Russia (in different incarnations) was the United State’s ally in two of the most important wars in the US’s history; the Revolutionary War and the Second World War. It is also, as **LSLGuy** stated in anotehr currently active thread; the US’s primary strategic adversary for the last several decades. International Alliances are by their nature fleeting; they are made with narrow political interest in mind, one which may change very fast very soon. The countries that you so brazenly think are evil; have been and will probbaly sometime in the future be US allies. Many of them have had very violent disagreements with Russia in the past; Iran for instance lost most of its Caucases and Central Asian possessions to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/56 "2017-08-01T18:15:23Z")
I don’t think there is an American equivalent to the “Great Purge.” > **[Great Purge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge)** > > The Great Purge or the Great Terror (Russian: Большой террор), also known as the Year of '37 (37-й год, Tridtsat sedmoi god) and the Yezhovshchina ('period of Yezhov'), was Soviet General Secretary Joseph Stalin's campaign to solidify his power over the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the state; the purges were also designed to remove the remaining influence of Leon Trotsky as well as other prominent political rivals within the party. It occurred from August 1936 to March 1938. > Followi... Not to say everything the US has done has been on the up and up, but at least we aren’t under threat of assassination when we point out our own failings. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/57 "2017-08-01T19:01:16Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Do we? Really? > > Cause we lock up a greater portion of our population then they do. Our military budget dwarfs theirs. We bomb more countries then they do. We have WAYYYY more military bases than they do. > > And Putin was actually elected at least once by a majority of his populace as opposed to…oh…the current leader of the US. Well, this thread sure shifted quick. So, the definition of evil action by a country these days is the size of their military budget and context free examples of bombing more ‘countries’ than everyone else? Oh, and having more military bases? So, by these definitions, North Korea is a paragon. So is China I suppose. Heck, these seem cherry picked for some odd reason because in this case, most countries would be saintly. We probably don’t want better relations with Russia, but the reality of how the world works is we need to maintain some relations with them while doing what we can to stop Putin from his obvious (to everyone outside of the folks on this board I guess) from his plans to put the old Soviet Union back together by hook or by crook, and to make Russia a major player on the world scene again…just with himself as the ‘president’ for life. Xi in China seems to have had the same idea…and has the apparatus in place to give Putin wet dreams. But I guess it’s all good because, well, they don’t have as large a military budget, as many overseas bases or bomb as many ‘countries’ as the US, which seems to be the yardstick of evil. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/58 "2017-08-04T05:20:57Z")
Now that we’re apparently at the start of Cold War 2 - Election Boogaloo, you’ve got to worry about the limited avenues of reprisal that Russia can realistically pursue for all the sanctions with little hope for relief. They’re not about to give back Crimea or stop projecting their power into the parts of Ukraine that stand in between. They’re not going to admit to/eliminate/pay restitution for political corruption, human rights violations, cheating at the Olympics, or inflicting Trump on the world. And they’re not going to settle for UN votes, cyber ops, propaganda, and future hopes of success via affecting our elections. What they _can do_ is make life very difficult in places where life is already difficult. Places like Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea. They just have to dust off a few Cold War playbooks that nobody wants to watch the Trump administration or our current legislature contend with. Whether we want better relations with Russia or not, I don’t think most people have realized just how real this shit is likely to get. It’s not going to be just a trade war with sanctions and tarrifs, because we’ve got them pretty much cornered there. Problem is, that’s about the extent of our stick, realistically. Our vulnerabilities are various and dispersed and theirs are relatively consolidated and already hardened against the outside. I’d be a lot more worried if I had kids/was more scared of dying/still had much hope for humanity. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/59 "2017-08-04T12:03:11Z")
It seems that a recurring problem with American foreign policy is the presumption of moral superiority and that we frequently attempt to leverage our economic, military, and political power based on that assumption. Putin’s Russia is a growing menace that is engaging in a dangerous behavioral escalation - most people can agree on that point. But I think Russia made it pretty clear at the end of the Cold War that it didn’t want to shut down the engines of its own empire only to watch its chief adversary expand an empire of its own. If you look at it from the perspective of Russia, what has the United States done since then? - led NATO strikes on a long-time ally with ethnic ties in the former Yugoslavia - invaded and occupied a country that lies on its border (Afghanistan) - invaded country illegally for the purpose of imposing more economic, military, and political control of one of the world’s most economically important regions - increased military and political ties with countries in the Russian sphere - talked openly about putting advanced “defense” missile systems in these countries - influenced Ukraine, the place of Russia’s birth, to become more integrated with former Western adversaries As I’ve said many times before, let’s turn the tables and imagine how Americans would feel if Russia or China managed to start putting military bases in Mexico, sending a fleet of carriers to patrol near the coast of California, put missile “defense” systems in Cuba, and influenced Canada’s government to become more anti-American and more pro-Russia / pro-China. Let’s be real: we’d be shitting in our pants, and understandably so. As for what can be done? Well I seem to recall making the argument that sanctions aren’t just sanctions; they can be interpreted as acts of war. A lot of people scoffed at that notion, but here we are deep into sanctions that have proven to be anything but effective. Indeed, just as I have pointed out, they’ve been met with hostility and they have pushed Russia into more escalation. This will only continue. Russia is not going to be broken with sanctions. They will only escalate until we feel more pain. The United States needs to re-learn the lessons of the Cold War instead of just assuming that it is right and that it has the power to do as it pleases. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748/60 "2017-08-04T15:55:20Z")
I think the recent Banning of Kaspersky by the Senate really hit Putin hard in the gut. Or he totally ignored it. One or the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-dont-want-better-relations-with-russia/790748.md?page=4)