# We Have a Robber Baron on the Board! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061 "2005-12-24T05:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/181 "2005-12-28T20:47:00Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > I want ever one of my workers to be making more money, but its impossible when I have to compete with people who pay min wage. You’re not actually making a profit instead of sharing it all with your workers, are you? If you are, then you have to decide what happens when someone decides you’re making too much, as you’ve decided Wal-Mart is. As has been pointed out, there’s always someone lower down on the scale. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/182 "2005-12-28T20:49:14Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Nothing to do with morality, but survival of this country. As wages get dragged down our deficiet gets more and more bloated. More people move from working full time and supporting themselves to working full time and going on welfare. How long do you think we can continue this nonsense? > > I would love a raise in min wage. It would mean so much more business for me, at least in my retail shop. People who come in a buy a cup of coffee might be able to afford pie too. It sad when people who used to make a decent wage have to run a tab till payday to buy freakin coffee. Plus, it would make my competitors pay their employees more so I wouldnt be at such a disadvantage. Raise it high enough and I could pay my workers more. I want ever one of my workers to be making more money, but its impossible when I have to compete with people who pay min wage. As an aside… Why would anyone who makes anything close to minimum wage be buying coffee by the cup? If I made $5/hr, I sure as hell wouldn’t spend $1.50 of it to buy a ten cent cup of coffee. A friend of mine at work has a daily Starbucks latte habit. He forks out almost $3.00 for his morning Latte. That’s $90/month, which is about 15% of what he pays in rent for his apartment. It’s probably a third of his entire food budget, and more than he spends on clothing and gas. It also happens to be about 50% more than what you pay to get health coverage if you work at Wal-Mart. I make a pot of coffee in the morning and load up a thermos mug, and I’m good to go. It costs me about $5/month. I refuse to feel sorry for anyone who claims they don’t make enough money to survive but who spends what they have frivolously on boutique coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/183 "2005-12-28T20:52:01Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Note that you can’t have it both ways. If these aren’t ‘really’ Nike workers, and are just workers in an independent factory that makes all kinds of stuff, then why exactly is Nike responsible for their working conditions? On the other hand, if these are workers that are employed specifically to make Nike products, then my original claim of 650,000 employees worldwide is correct. I can back up a few things. There are a couple of us on these boards that used to work for a collection of show manufacturers. The factories that produce shoes oversees are generally independent businesses that bid on contracts for all of the shoe manufacturers. Nikes can and are made in the same factories as Rebook and lots of other brands of shoes. Shoe manufacturers generally use lots of different factories in several countries. They don’t own them and aren’t directly responsible for wages or working conditions in those factories. That said, virtually all of the major show manufacturers conduct tours and working condition surveys as a condition for bidding on further contracts. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/184 "2005-12-28T20:52:28Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > You’re not actually making a profit instead of sharing it all with your workers, are you? If you are, then you have to decide what happens when someone decides you’re making too much, as you’ve decided Wal-Mart is. As has been pointed out, there’s always someone lower down on the scale. Nope, I’m not. I am in fact the lowest paid employee of my company. We are a new company and until we start making money it will stay that way. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/185 "2005-12-28T20:57:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > As an aside… > > Why would anyone who makes anything close to minimum wage be buying coffee by the cup? If I made $5/hr, I sure as hell wouldn’t spend $1.50 of it to buy a ten cent cup of coffee. A friend of mine at work has a daily Starbucks latte habit. He forks out almost $3.00 for his morning Latte. That’s $90/month, which is about 15% of what he pays in rent for his apartment. It’s probably a third of his entire food budget, and more than he spends on clothing and gas. It also happens to be about 50% more than what you pay to get health coverage if you work at Wal-Mart. > > I make a pot of coffee in the morning and load up a thermos mug, and I’m good to go. It costs me about $5/month. > > I refuse to feel sorry for anyone who claims they don’t make enough money to survive but who spends what they have frivolously on boutique coffee. Well, for a couple of bucks they can come in our place and a get a cup of coffee with free refills and use our internet to check email and job hunt. Some of them its the only entertainment they can afford. So yeah, once or twice a week they splurge and spend 2 bucks and get to socialize a bit with their friends. I dont see a thing wrong with that. If you do, that explains a whole lot. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/186 "2005-12-28T21:05:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I make a pot of coffee in the morning and load up a thermos mug, and I’m good to go. It costs me about $5/month. And as an asside, 30 pots of coffee for 5 bucks? That would some foul prison coffee. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/187 "2005-12-28T21:08:44Z")
I mean…wow…thats like less than a buck a pound. Wholesale green industrial coffee isnt that cheap. And that stuffs used as filler, its not drinkable by itself really. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/188 "2005-12-28T21:09:12Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > I would love a raise in min wage. It would mean so much more business for me, at least in my retail shop. People who come in a buy a cup of coffee might be able to afford pie too. It sad when people who used to make a decent wage have to run a tab till payday to buy freakin coffee. Plus, it would make my competitors pay their employees more so I wouldnt be at such a disadvantage. Raise it high enough and I could pay my workers more. I want ever one of my workers to be making more money, but its impossible when I have to compete with people who pay min wage. Every time I see a minimum wage increase, I see the cost of goods increase to make up for it, which in turn, _may_ still become too expensive for those who just got the increase. Are you saying that you (personally) will keep the price of pie the same so others can buy it, even though you are now paying a higher minimum wage to your staff and also for the increased cost for fruit, flour, sugar, pie tin, gas, etc. to make that pie? I know that the increase will not be proportional to your cost to produce, but what I am really asking is…Will you raise (or not) the price of the pie (and coffee) when there is an increase of minimum wage? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/189 "2005-12-28T21:14:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I can back up a few things. There are a couple of us on these boards that used to work for a collection of show manufacturers. The factories that produce shoes oversees are generally independent businesses that bid on contracts for all of the shoe manufacturers. Nikes can and are made in the same factories as Rebook and lots of other brands of shoes. Shoe manufacturers generally use lots of different factories in several countries. They don’t own them and aren’t directly responsible for wages or working conditions in those factories. That said, virtually all of the major show manufacturers conduct tours and working condition surveys as a condition for bidding on further contracts. Fine. However, what we don’t know is how many of these factories exclusively make Nike products, and if some factories make multiple products, whether Nike is only claiming as employees the percentage that make just their stuff. Some of the cites I posted above certainly imply that the numbers we are talking about are in fact people who exclusively make Nike products. For example, one cite says, “Twenty-five thousand young Vietnamese workers currently churn out a million pairs of Nikes every month.” Pretty hard to spin that as anything but people employed to make Nike products, no? Or “More than 4,000 workers who churn out athletic bags in a huge Nike contract factory”. Oh, and by the way, if it takes 25,000 people a month to make a million pairs of Nike shoes, then that ‘smell test’ estimate of **Mtgman** ’s of 40 pairs of shoes per hour per employee is WAY off. And anyway, he didn’t apply his own ‘smell test’ to his smell test. Does it make sense to anyone that you can hand-make an entire pair of running shoes in a minute and a half? I’m guessing the 40 pairs of shoes per hour is the output of the entire factory, not the output per worker. The number above indicates that this particular factory makes 40 pairs of shoes per worker per month. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/190 "2005-12-28T21:18:27Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Every time I see a minimum wage increase, I see the cost of goods increase to make up for it, which in turn, _may_ still become too expensive for those who just got the increase. Are you saying that you (personally) will keep the price of pie the same so others can buy it, even though you are now paying a higher minimum wage to your staff and also for the increased cost for fruit, flour, sugar, pie tin, gas, etc. to make that pie? I know that the increase will not be proportional to your cost to produce, but what I am really asking is…Will you raise (or not) the price of the pie (and coffee) when there is an increase of minimum wage? Labor is a percentage of the total costs of doing business. some of up will go up, some wont…rent, electricity insurance, green coffee…none of that will be effected much by an increased labor cost (not for a while anyway). So the price of a cup of coffee might go up a little, but not nearly as much as the increase in money in peoples pockets. In turn, people will buy more. I will get a better deal on my green coffee etc because I am buying more. In the long run, prices will increase on some things, but more consumer spending and confidence will more than make up for it. Its better for the economy as a whole if I make a 100 bucks selling 100 cups of coffee than it is if I make 100 bucks selling 50 cups of coffee. I still have the same 100 bucks, but more people get coffee and more people are employed to make it. (the preceding was a figure of speach and not meant to reflect real coffee profit margins) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/191 "2005-12-28T21:22:16Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Well, for a couple of bucks they can come in our place and a get a cup of coffee with free refills and use our internet to check email and job hunt. Some of them its the only entertainment they can afford. So yeah, once or twice a week they splurge and spend 2 bucks and get to socialize a bit with their friends. I dont see a thing wrong with that. If you do, that explains a whole lot. If it’s a cup of coffee a week, great. But I’ll bet that’s not your regular clientele, is it? We have a Starbucks in our office building, and every morning I see the same people lined up in front of it. As for the cost of my coffee, I don’t make a huge pot, because I don’t drink a pot of coffee a day. We set the coffee maker to make six cups. My wife takes two, and I take three or four in a giant thermos mug. I’d say I buy a pound of coffee once a month or so, maybe slightly more. It costs about $5-7. But now we’re really nitpicking. The fact is, making your own coffee in the morning is trivially easy, and costs a tiny fraction of what boutique coffee costs. Anyone who is making minimum wage and buying boutique coffee regularly needs some serious money management skills. $2/day for coffee? On minimum wage? Crazy. That’s $720/yr. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/192 "2005-12-28T21:30:46Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > If it’s a cup of coffee a week, great. But I’ll bet that’s not your regular clientele, is it? We have a Starbucks in our office building, and every morning I see the same people lined up in front of it. We have a diverse clientele. The people that buy latte’s every day arent the people with no money…they are people who still have a decent job and like good coffee. The people who I’m talking about stop in once or twice a week and get the free refill brewed coffee. Some times they dont get anything. Some times I front them a cup. As for the cost of my coffee, I don’t make a huge pot, because I don’t drink a pot of coffee a day. We set the coffee maker to make six cups. My wife takes two, and I take three or four in a giant thermos mug. I’d say I buy a pound of coffee once a month or so, maybe slightly more. It costs about $5-7. But now we’re really nitpicking. The fact is, making your own coffee in the morning is trivially easy, and costs a tiny fraction of what boutique coffee costs. Anyone who is making minimum wage and buying boutique coffee regularly needs some serious money management skills. $2/day for coffee? On minimum wage? Crazy. That’s $720/yr. [/QUOTE] You miss the point entirely. People who cant afford to go to the movies will come hang out in a coffee shop and talk to their friends. None of these people spend 2 bucks a day every day. Everyone deserves some entertainment and this is cheap entertainment. Some of them are trying to find better work. They cant afford a computer and internet connection so they come to my shop. ANd while I would let them use it for free they dont wanna feel like freeloaders so they buy a cup of coffee. The idea that anyone spending 4 bucks a week on some form of entertainment is a money management problem is insane. The fact that you cant grasp that concept explains a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/193 "2005-12-28T22:11:47Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Some of them are trying to find better work. They cant afford a computer and internet connection so they come to my shop. ANd while I would let them use it for free they dont wanna feel like freeloaders so they buy a cup of coffee. The idea that anyone spending 4 bucks a week on some form of entertainment is a money management problem is insane. The fact that you cant grasp that concept explains a lot. Do even read what I write? I never said anything about ‘spending four bucks a week on entertainment’. I was specifically talking about people who buy coffee from a boutique EVERY DAY, just to get their coffee fix. I was thinking of the people I see around here who shuffle through Starbucks just to pick up a coffee on the way to work. It’s one of those little things that adds up to serious money, especially if you’re buying specialty coffees. Hell, when I was in college we used to do exactly what you’re talking about - go to the local coffee shop, buy a coffee with free refills, and hang out for a couple of hours. For a buck fifty, it was cheap entertainment, like you say. In fact, we did that because we were too poor to go to the bar or to the movies. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/194 "2005-12-28T22:32:39Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Do even read what I write? I never said anything about ‘spending four bucks a week on entertainment’. I was specifically talking about people who buy coffee from a boutique EVERY DAY, just to get their coffee fix. I was thinking of the people I see around here who shuffle through Starbucks just to pick up a coffee on the way to work. It’s one of those little things that adds up to serious money, especially if you’re buying specialty coffees. And I had already told you that people who are that poor only go a couple of times a week. > [@](#): > > Hell, when I was in college we used to do exactly what you’re talking about - go to the local coffee shop, buy a coffee with free refills, and hang out for a couple of hours. For a buck fifty, it was cheap entertainment, like you say. In fact, we did that because we were too poor to go to the bar or to the movies. So you understand sorta. Now image that you dont even have college…just a grind of a job that pays little of anything and rathole appartment to go to. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/195 "2005-12-28T22:58:40Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > When come back, bring actual data and not assumptions and suspicions backed by GIGO math. That hurts **Sam**. I hurt myself laughing. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/196 "2005-12-28T23:14:52Z")
**bdgr** , you don’t get it. Poor people are only poor because they’re stupid and lazy, and thus they don’t _deserve_ something so frivolous as “entertainment.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/197 "2005-12-28T23:15:23Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > That hurts **Sam**. > > I hurt myself laughing. > > Enjoy, > Steven Considering that you were wrong about almost everything you said, I’m glad you at least retain the ability to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/198 "2005-12-28T23:23:00Z")
I usually have one large cup of coffee every day. I don’t put sugar in it, but I do put half-n-half in it. Lots of half-n-half. Although I get this at my local coffee shop, one has to wonder how much the half-n-half adds to the cost. And what is half-n-half anyway? Is it half cream and half milk? If so, one has to wonder if it would be more cost effective to buy the two separately, and then mix them together. But one thing I can tell you… every now and then I accidently put fat free milk in instead half-n-half, and that tastes just horrible. I don’t see how people can drink coffee with that stuff in it-- you might as well just add water. The thing I don’t like about Starbucks is that they pour the coffee for you, and even if I ask them to leave room for cream, they never leave enough room for the amount of half-n-half I like to add. There’s no place, other than the trash can, to pour the excess coffee, and I always feel strange doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/199 "2005-12-28T23:25:16Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **bdgr** , you don’t get it. Poor people are only poor because they’re stupid and lazy, and thus they don’t _deserve_ something so frivolous as “entertainment.” > > :rolleyes: I think mean that everyone needs to have sound money management skills to make the most effective use of their resources. How can anyone disagree with that? Have you ever noticed that the very poor tend to have very bad money management skills that really affect their ability to break out of it: lottery tickets, cigarettes, pawn shops, check cashing places, rental stores, high interest credit cards and loans, the newest flashy whatever etc. Humm? I would gladly support government sponsored money management classes for the poor just as a practical matter. I have no idea if it would help but it just kills me to see it. It’s like someone try to catch rain with a sieve. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/200 "2005-12-28T23:27:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I usually have one large cup of coffee every day. I don’t put sugar in it, but I do put half-n-half in it. Lots of half-n-half. Although I get this at my local coffee shop, one has to wonder how much the half-n-half adds to the cost. And what is half-n-half anyway? Is it half cream and half milk? If so, one has to wonder if it would be more cost effective to buy the two separately, and then mix them together. But one thing I can tell you… every now and then I accidently put fat free milk in instead half-n-half, and that tastes just horrible. I don’t see how people can drink coffee with that stuff in it-- you might as well just add water. > . Half and is a big expense. Its about 6 bucks a gallon if you find it cheap. It is in fact half cream, half milk and I did the math once…its more if you buy the two seperately and mix them. We go through a disturbing amount of half and half. We buy it by the case. If someone uses a lot of half and half we can probably lose money on them with free refills. Cost of doing business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061.md?page=11)