# We Have a Robber Baron on the Board! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061 "2005-12-24T05:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/281 "2005-12-30T20:35:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m posting as a member, not a Mod, **Cemetery** , but your defense of that post is bullshit. **bdgr** ’s claim clearly rested on the use of the adjective that you snipped and a claim of “ellipsis” does not cut it. You did not remove an extraneous or parenthetical phrase to get to the meat of his statement, you removed a direct modifier that was necessary to his statement. Since **bdger** is a capitalist (even if some posters think he’s wrong-headed in his execution), attributing the claim that he believes that (all) capitalism results in poverty is just dishonest posturing on your part. Thanks for the correction on the ellipsis, Tomndebb. Get thoe two words mixed up from time to time. To be frank here, I wasn’t especially trying to misrepresent bdgr (certain;y didn’t claim bdgr thought that way), but I wanted to leave out the “unbridled” since I made the distinction between the “unbridled” and “unfettered” earlier in the post, I believe. Also, I think “unbridled” was implied. I don’t think anyone really believes that _all_ capitalism results in poverty. That’s extremist thinking, and I’d like to think there’s not too much of that on the board (what?). bdgr…if you believe I purposefully took you out of context, my sincere apologies. Not meant that way. I still think you’re goofy on the whole skill-set thing, but that’s OK, too. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/282 "2005-12-30T22:17:28Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > I’m not saying they should…just that if they can afford to have shoes made here at American wages, then they can afford to givethe guys overseas an extra couple of bucks a day Maybe, maybe not. Don’t underestimate the need to control costs (labor and otherwise) in a large corporation. There’s always another company out there trying to undercut you. And the great thing about the free market is that if your theory is correct, then someone will eventually swoop in, pay those workers more, and put Nike out of business by stealing all their workers. That person could even be you! ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/283 "2005-12-30T22:31:12Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Maybe, maybe not. Don’t underestimate the need to control costs (labor and otherwise) in a large corporation. There’s always another company out there trying to undercut you. And the great thing about the free market is that if your theory is correct, then someone will eventually swoop in, pay those workers more, and put Nike out of business by stealing all their workers. That person could even be you! Nah…theres no shortage of disadvantaged people to take advantage of. But again, the fact tha NB can make a profit paying workers 10 times (at least) what nike does shows that some peoples statement that Nike runs sweatshops because they cant afford to pay more is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/284 "2005-12-31T00:00:53Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So, out of curiousity, all hair-splitting aside, do you agree that the number of people employed making Nike products is in the hundreds of thousands, and not tens of thousands? Sam, this simply does not matter. What matters is the number of shoes produced by Nike and the assembly line labor costs per unit. The extra $.50 can be passed on to the consumer and can accompany a vigorous A & P campaign. Americans have shown a strong willingness to buy more expensive products that they feel express their moral beliefs. Regardless, adding $.50 to the cost of 70M shoes increases Nike’s FY administrative and labor expense by less than 2%. Considering that Nike’s gross margin has risen 10% and revenues have risen by 9% YOY, this does not seem to be an unreasonable position to take. Pay your third world laborers more, invest in your brand, and increase the price of your merchandise. Hell, pay only a fraction of your factory workers more and raise the price in markets where organic retailers thrive and see what happens. My gut says that New Yorkers and San Franciscans would gladly kick in an extra buck to share the wealth. Nike gets product differentiation, brand cache, and a higher gross margin, workers get an extra bowl of rice a day, and consumers get a squishy feeling every time they buy Nike. What a disaster this would surely be. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/285 "2005-12-31T00:24:40Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Or you can actually train your own competition so that they can also provide for their families too. You can realize that profit is only part of success, and not always the most important part. Quality matters and so does putting human beings first. Customers are loyal to the man who didn’t let their children go without food when there was nothing, or carried their groceries and seed on account until the crops came in. > > What goes 'round… Yeah…not so much. Customers value price, quality and service. I don’t think too many people think about how the products get there. Profit, for a business, is in fact the most important measurement of success. The alternative to profit is losing money and a company can’t stay in business if it continues to lose money. People like to indulge in fantasy where business is concerned. They want low prices, thje best service, high wages and the best benefits money can buy. The reality is that you can’t have everything. There are tradeoffs. A typical consulting exercise we do is you can have two out of three - High Quality, Low Price, Quality Service. You pick which two you want. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/286 "2005-12-31T00:55:54Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Nah…theres no shortage of disadvantaged people to take advantage of. But again, the fact tha NB can make a profit paying workers 10 times (at least) what nike does shows that some peoples statement that Nike runs sweatshops because they cant afford to pay more is absurd. Wow. Why would you restate something that you’ve already acknowledge is not true? NB does not pay workers 10x what Nike does. It pays some small fraction of workers an American wage. Maybe those factories are more highly automated, too. I think the only moral calculus needed here (if any is needed at all) is to ask the simple question: Are Nike’s workers better off with or without the jobs it provides? If the answer is yes, then you’re chastizing Nike for acting in a beneficial way, but not just acting beneficial “enough”. If I give a begger $5, but can afford to give him $10, would you chastize me, too? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/287 "2005-12-31T01:01:25Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Sam, this simply does not matter. What matters is the number of shoes produced by Nike and the assembly line labor costs per unit. The extra $.50 can be passed on to the consumer and can accompany a vigorous A & P campaign. Americans have shown a strong willingness to buy more expensive products that they feel express their moral beliefs. > > \ > > My gut says that New Yorkers and San Franciscans would gladly kick in an extra buck to share the wealth. Sounds like the makings of a business plan. Why don’t you use that to start a business and tell us how it works out for you? First, though, you might want to do a little market research by visitin NY and SF and see how many Nike products people wear there. That’s what I would do, but that’s just me. Your “gut” is probably right… ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/288 "2005-12-31T01:27:24Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Sounds like the makings of a business plan. Why don’t you use that to start a business and tell us how it works out for you? > > First, though, you might want to do a little market research by visitin NY and SF and see how many Nike products people wear there. That’s what I would do, but that’s just me. Your “gut” is probably right… Way to go **John**. Don’t you know that the laws of business and economics were suspended for some people? As long as your _intent_ is good, nothing else matters. It is better that we all go broke together instead of stratifying into inequality through the evils of textbook business practices. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/289 "2005-12-31T02:22:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Way to go **John**. Don’t you know that the laws of business and economics were suspended for some people? As long as your _intent_ is good, nothing else matters. It is better that we all go broke together instead of stratifying into inequality through the evils of textbook business practices. Which takes us right back to the initial post. Perhaps I had trouble making myself clear. I have no problems with “textbook business practices” assuming the “textbooks” are describing practices legal in this day and age, and not VanDeventerian laissez faire ones. I have no problem with economic stratification based on diligence and the profit motive. What I **do** have a problem with is the sort of unprincipled employee abuse which you described in the thread I linked to and quoted from. Apparently your wife and FIL **do** pay decent wages to their employees, and have reasons for not wanting them to unionize. That’s more or less reasonable: pay them what their work and the competitive job market entitles them to, and you get no flak from me. But the vicious policy you subscribed to in the OP quote is another matter altogether. News for you: it took 40 years of your FIL **and** his employees’ hard work to build the business up. If he now thinks that legal title and accrued capital means that he’s entitled to put them in a position where they’re not entitled to a living wage in exchange for competent, consistent work in his behalf, then **morally** it’s not **his** money; he’s **stolen** it from his employees. As you’ve explained yourself, the circumstances are different than your doctrinaire Spencerian screed would indicate. And as you may have noticed, most people are prepared to say that unions as well as management have been willing to scrap the idea of a compromise that works well for all in favor of selfish all-the-traffic-will-bear-ism. But we (meaning the American people) won’t let either side have all the advantage, at least not permanently. Now do we have something remotely resembling closure here? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/290 "2005-12-31T02:34:36Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …you mean that millions of people had to commit an **illegal** act to get out of poverty? Wow. Colour me surprised. The point I was driving home is that there are even poorer people than the ones the **bdgr** described who were desperate enough to move to another country, even if it was by illegal means, not to mention the ones that moved here legally as well. I pointed this out because it was an extra strike against them besides being poor, but they didn’t give up. **Bdgr** thinks the poor here are totally unable to move to find jobs, which I don’t totally believe. When my mom left my abusive dad (with my brother and I in tow), she filled up one suitcase of clothes for all of us and had enough gas to get us into California from Arizona, and some leftovers out of the fridge. She never looked back and we never spent another night in Arizona. Fortunately, she almost had a degree from U of A (3+ years removed) to get a job at an iron ore mine as a buyer…and her struggle to get back her self-reliance and dignity began. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/291 "2005-12-31T02:57:26Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Now do we have something remotely resembling closure here? Sort of. The family issue was mixed in deceptively. It wasn’t on purpose and I didn’t think anyone would really notice. There are tons of anti-uinion statements on this board and I just figured mine was one of many. MY FIL’s business has only had a handful of people talk about unionization somewhat casually in 40 years. It just so happened that those people were thieves and troublemakers in general. I am sure that you can see how certain well-run and fair businesses can catch shit from the types of people that have more complicated motives than simple employee rights. A protectionist union might look pretty good to certain types of people despite working conditions and terms. I see that as another issue with unions. Some workers don’t deserve protecting and yet that is a common core trait of unions from Teamsters to teacher’s unions. I was (and still am) confident that any future union movements would because of the same motives. Anyway, my inside knowledge leads me to believe that any future union stirs will be from those with the same type of behavior and they will be lucky to stay out of jail unlike some of the others (there was a major white-collar bust of a embezzling finance manager just a few months ago. He is going to federal prison. They get you from all sides). That said, I still personally hate unions mainly for philosophical unions (except for the free-association trade unions that others mentioned). Those two feelings should have been separated out but hindsight is 20/20. This thread made me want to go into “union busting” but I can’t figure out how to do it. That job wasn’t listed in any of my job books. I would probably have to break some kneecaps in the process too and I would have to get in better shape for that. Maybe I could just make a short film that shows union workers arriving at work and then being stormed and beaten by management. Executives could flip cars and torch their things. It would be a parody of Hoffa of course. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/292 "2005-12-31T03:28:26Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > I didnt say I would rather fail than laying them off. I would rather fail then treat the ones who do work like dirt. Employees need security in knowing that the job will be there day after day, even if its not an ideal job. I don’t go out of my way to treat anyone like dirt either, regardless of wages paid. Low wages =/= dirt treatment. Telling them that they worthless, take away their breaks and not pay them overtime is more like the dirt treatment that you speak of. Example: If you paid them 25% more than they are making now, you would be out of business in a few months. If you gave the employees a choice of working for the same wage now for a long period of time versus getting a 25% raise, but only have the job for a few months, what do you think they would choose? > [@](#): > > Could be. I’ll tell them, they’ll be flattered. There are always good employees, who like to be in a happy work setting for their own sakes and actually go out of their way to help make it one. Those are the employees that makes a good business great. Ask them which scenario above they would chose. You’ll get both answers but consider which employee (good or bad) responds with. If you have a good business and you are a good owner, the good employees will pick the job security. A short timer or bad employee will respond with the 25% raise, because they have no long term interest in your business, nor do they have long term interest in their own job. Now I am not saying don’t give them a raise; because they do deserve it when you can afford it, but you always have to consider job security FIRST (the ability to pay your employees, even if its not a living wage), over risking your business by paying some arbitrary living wage that someone outside your business designates, even if those factors that determine the living wage are beyond the employer’s control. > [@](#): > > So since your union did that, all unions do that? I gave a counterexample to your generalization about unions being mostly good. I have already pointed out that today’s unions ARE a double-edged sword…more like a Ying and Yang thing (for lack of a better term). They did one good thing for me over the 10 year period (kept my full-time status when it was warranted), but other things (such as senority) that ruined alot of other opportunities because some slacker (who was a coke addict), was hired a month before me. Therefore, he had first choice over vacations, days and hours, etc. I lost respect for my union when they defended this known coke addict for multiple policy violations (including injuring a fellow employee) and he should have been terminated, but the union found ways for him to get a 3 day suspension, almost on an annual basis. Every time he got suspended, his response was…“Looks like I’m going to Vegas!” That’s the Teamsters for you. :rolleyes: I have mentioned this in another thread before this one, but I actually took SOME of the policies in my union handbook when I started my own business to create our policies. Stuff that made sense, like accruals of PTO, absence/tardy policies, 2 verbals warnings before a written warning before a termination policy when violations took place that were not malicious in nature…etc. I figured out early on that if I had these policies in place, it would be as if we were already unionized. The senority crap had to go though, IMHO…and I made it first come, first serve (as long as you had the PTO already banked) when it came to vacations and other requests. My employees all work the same days and hours, so that point is moot. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/293 "2005-12-31T05:11:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Wow. Why would you restate something that you’ve already acknowledge is not true? NB does not pay workers 10x what Nike does. It pays some small fraction of workers an American wage. Maybe those factories are more highly automated, too. if 1/4 of their shoes are made being real wages…and those shoes sell for a profit, so much so that they are moving more manufacturing here. > [@](#): > > I think the only moral calculus needed here (if any is needed at all) is to ask the simple question: Are Nike’s workers better off with or without the jobs it provides? If the answer is yes, then you’re chastizing Nike for acting in a beneficial way, but not just acting beneficial “enough”. If I give a begger $5, but can afford to give him $10, would you chastize me, too? You can think that all you want, but it does not make it so. Nike makes enough off of each shoe to pay the workers many times what it does. They pocket the money instead. These arent beggers, they are working for their money. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/294 "2005-12-31T05:25:49Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > The point I was driving home is that there are even poorer people than the ones the **bdgr** described who were desperate enough to move to another country, even if it was by illegal means, not to mention the ones that moved here legally as well. I pointed this out because it was an extra strike against them besides being poor, but they didn’t give up. **Bdgr** thinks the poor here are totally unable to move to find jobs, which I don’t totally believe. Most illegals cross the border and stay with family and work dead end jobs that arent any better than what they did at home…but for a little more money. What you are talking about is people in this country who are working the same kind of dead end job the people in your example are crossing the boarder to get. You are suggesting that these people can walk and hitchhike across country with no place to stay and where the jobs available to homless people…if any are no better than where they left. To get a good job you have to have an adress. You have to have clean clothes. You have to have a way to get to that job. Just hitchhiking to a new city with nothing but the clothes on your back wont do it. Your comparison between the illegals and the poor already here is invalid because the illegals are coming here to become poor, rarely make it past that point. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/295 "2005-12-31T05:44:10Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > You have to have a way to get to that job. Just hitchhiking to a new city with nothing but the clothes on your back wont do it… Oh, nobody would ever just risk everything and move to a city in America with just their own skills and clothes on their back. Unthinkable in history. Let me ask you a question. If I took everything you had and forced you to move to a new city with nothing but the clothes on your back, do you think you could pull it off? I know I could because I already did it and I really and truly had less than $500 to my name and more debt than that? Are others simply not capable of those things themselves? I have more faith in humanity than that because it has been done over and over. If you are in that situation, you don’t have to get everything all at once. You first get any room you can get whatever job comes first. That gives you times and options. You manage your money responsibly and build from there. Even if you don’t have a college degree, there are still a slew of good-paying jobs out there as long as you work towards them one step at a time. This short-term thinking of yours is really out-of-control. If this country was filled with people like you we would all be clustered on the East coast and still farming. If you need someone to take some plates and cups off your hands one day, I have family in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/296 "2005-12-31T06:55:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Sounds like the makings of a business plan. Why don’t you use that to start a business and tell us how it works out for you? > > First, though, you might want to do a little market research by visitin NY and SF and see how many Nike products people wear there. That’s what I would do, but that’s just me. Your “gut” is probably right… For what it’s worth, I live in NYC. A lot of people wear Nike products, but a lot of people also wear Gap parody wear. T-shirts that say “Crap: Everyone In Sweatshops.” I know what the lines (and the prices) are like at Whole Foods. Maybe I’ll raise a few million bucks and start getting to know some vendors and factory owners. But first I need to get tired of my non-union job in the credit card industry. > [@](#): > > Way to go John. Don’t you know that the laws of business and economics were suspended for some people? As long as your intent is good, nothing else matters. It is better that we all go broke together instead of stratifying into inequality through the evils of textbook business practices. Was this supposed to be a snipe at me, **Shagnasty**? If not, peace. If so, it’s both misplaced and retarded. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/297 "2005-12-31T07:23:21Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Oh, nobody would ever just risk everything and move to a city in America with just their own skills and clothes on their back. Unthinkable in history. > > Let me ask you a question. If I took everything you had and forced you to move to a new city with nothing but the clothes on your back, do you think you could pull it off? I know I could because I already did it and I really and truly had less than $500 to my name and more debt than that? Are others simply not capable of those things themselves? I have more faith in humanity than that because it has been done over and over. > > If you are in that situation, you don’t have to get everything all at once. You first get any room you can get whatever job comes first. That gives you times and options. You manage your money responsibly and build from there. Even if you don’t have a college degree, there are still a slew of good-paying jobs out there as long as you work towards them one step at a time. I have done it more or less…if you read my posts. I loaded everything I could in a truck and headed across country, and slept on a friends couch etc…I survived and came out ok… Thing is, sparky…I’m honest. I can look back at what I did and what happened and see where I got a few breaks, had a friend I could crash with, relatives my wife and kid could stay with, and with a lot of persistance and a little luck managed to find a temp job, then a perm job blah blah blah. I NEVER SAID it couldnt be done asshat. What I said was that it is unrealistic for most people and doesnt work every time for every one. I can recognize the breaks, the advantages, and the elements that made it possible for me. I’m not such a narrow minded elitist that I cant see how someone else might not have that same situation. > [@](#): > > This short-term thinking of yours is really out-of-control. If this country was filled with people like you we would all be clustered on the East coast and still farming. > > If you need someone to take some plates and cups off your hands one day, I have family in the area. Its not short term thinking…its realism and understanding. When you have a opportunity you take it, and you work hard and dont give up. I get that, I’ve done it, probably more than your spoiled ass. But I also know that there are millions of people out there who have it worse than I do…who have it worse than you and who succeding at just hicking across the country and securing even a temp job with no experiance and no degree would be about like winning the lottery. I’m not saying that those people should give up. I’m saying that we need to make it a more realistic chance of success for those people. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/298 "2005-12-31T07:25:42Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Was this supposed to be a snipe at me, **Shagnasty**? If not, peace. If so, it’s both misplaced and retarded. I believe it was a snipe at me. He thinks that anyone who doesnt crush their employees will and treat them like dogs is going bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/299 "2005-12-31T08:14:23Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Most illegals cross the border and stay with family and work dead end jobs that arent any better than what they did at home…but for a little more money. Actually, many of them are held in [safehouses](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-smuggle30dec30,1,2949150.story?coll=la-headlines-california) until their smugglers are paid off, which drives the family further into debt, but still viable to come here in the first place. And you REALLY think they come here for just “a little more money”? :dubious: Many others brave the terrain and weather crossing into Arizona and New Mexico; some die along the way…just for “a little more money”. A little more money like $20B in remittances to Mexico…now the #2 income for the country, ahead of tourism? :dubious: > [@](#): > > What you are talking about is people in this country who are working the same kind of dead end job the people in your example are crossing the boarder to get. You are suggesting that these people can walk and hitchhike across country with no place to stay and where the jobs available to homless people…if any are no better than where they left. To get a good job you have to have an adress. You have to have clean clothes. You have to have a way to get to that job. Just hitchhiking to a new city with nothing but the clothes on your back wont do it. It’s been done before…you really underestimate the drive of some people and the human spirit. Talk with somebody who’s lived through the Depression…most stories will have some elements that you deny that people possess. > [@](#): > > Your comparison between the illegals and the poor already here is invalid because the illegals are coming here to become poor, rarely make it past that point. [No, they are here to send money home to their families as well as improving their own quality of life.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=Remittances+Income+Mexico+2005&btnG=Search) ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061/300 "2005-12-31T08:21:43Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Actually, many of them are held in [safehouses](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-smuggle30dec30,1,2949150.story?coll=la-headlines-california) until their smugglers are paid off, which drives the family further into debt, but still viable to come here in the first place. And you REALLY think they come here for just “a little more money”? :dubious: > Many others brave the terrain and weather crossing into Arizona and New Mexico; some die along the way…just for “a little more money”. A little more money like $20B in remittances to Mexico…now the #2 income for the country, ahead of tourism? :dubious: > It’s been done before…you really underestimate the drive of some people and the human spirit. Talk with somebody who’s lived through the Depression…most stories will have some elements that you deny that people possess. > [No, they are here to send money home to their families as well as improving their own quality of life.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=Remittances+Income+Mexico+2005&btnG=Search) I’m not denying any of what you say. I’m just saying that it is only a benifit to them because they are coming from so much farther down. Your talking about people who come to this country to make our min wage (orless) andsaying thats a reason our people can do the same thing…there isnt a richer version of america across a differant river. The best most people could hope for is a latteral move unless they have a place to live and some funds to get them by in the new place. I’m not talking about people who have a college degree and 500 bucks in their pocket. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-a-robber-baron-on-the-board/337061.md?page=16)