# We have achieved 3.6 billion degrees F **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 9, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634 "2006-03-09T03:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlickRoenick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SlickRoenick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlickRoenick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/1 "2006-03-09T03:25:15Z")
[http://www.livescience.com/technology/060308\_sandia\_z.html](http://www.livescience.com/technology/060308_sandia_z.html) 3.6 Billion degrees F. What kind of thermometer do they use to withstand the heat to make a measurement temperature that high? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/2 "2006-03-09T03:43:52Z")
You know what the best part of this article is? The new temperature record is sort of cool, I guess, but this (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > One thing that puzzles scientists is that the high temperature was achieved after the plasma’s ions should have been losing energy and cooling. Also, when the high temperature was achieved, **the Z machine was releasing more energy than was originally put in** , something that usually occurs only in nuclear reactions. Assuming it’s not due to some measurement error or something, this could be…interesting. To put it mildly. Most new discoveries in science start out with somone saying “Hey, that’s _funny_.” ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/3 "2006-03-09T03:45:57Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Most new discoveries in science start out with somone saying “Hey, that’s _funny_.” Followed by, “Hey, what happens if we do _this?_” Gotta love scientists ---
**Author:** ![SlickRoenick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SlickRoenick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlickRoenick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/4 "2006-03-09T03:49:17Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Assuming it’s not due to some measurement error or something, this could be…interesting. To put it mildly. Wouldn’t that be a violation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics though? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/5 "2006-03-09T03:51:04Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > You know what the best part of this article is? The new temperature record is sort of cool, I guess, but this (emphasis added): > Assuming it’s not due to some measurement error or something, this could be…interesting. To put it mildly. > > Most new discoveries in science start out with someone saying “Hey, that’s _funny_.” You would think disobeying the laws of thermodynamics would be grounds for serious trouble even for someone with tenure. They need to stop playing with that thing. They’ll burn the atmosphere down. ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/6 "2006-03-09T03:56:32Z")
Laws are made to be broken, or at least re-written. When the first Fusion Powersphere comes on line I want to be there. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/7 "2006-03-09T03:56:55Z")
> [@SlickRoenick](#): > > Wouldn’t that be a violation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics though? No. Presumably some of the energy is coming from the mass of the tungsten wires being converted to energy, like what happens in nuclear reactions. Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, as Einstein put it. In a sense, they are not getting out more energy than they put in - it’s just that some of the energy that they put in as mass is coming out as energy. What’s interesting is that, if this is true, they’ve achieved what no other nuclear fusion researcher has done yet, and that is produce a fusion reaction that produces more energy than is required to get it started. And all without actually being fusion researchers to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Bomzaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Bomzaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bomzaway)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/8 "2006-03-09T04:28:48Z")
> [@SlickRoenick](#): > > 3.6 Billion degrees F. What kind of thermometer do they use to withstand the heat to make a measurement temperature that high? A really big one! With lots of mercury in it. 😛 Seriously, how is this measured? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/9 "2006-03-09T04:45:26Z")
> [@Bomzaway](#): > > Seriously, how is this measured? I assume it is done with spectroscopy: studying the glowing plasma’s emission spectra, or the light that it emits. Similar to how those infrared thermometers that you can buy for cooking work. This is also how the temperatures of stars are determined. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/10 "2006-03-09T04:56:16Z")
Emission spectrum, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Procyon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@Procyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procyon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/11 "2006-03-09T05:50:56Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > No. Presumably some of the energy is coming from the mass of the tungsten wires being converted to energy, like what happens in nuclear reactions. Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, as Einstein put it. > > In a sense, they are not getting out more energy than they put in - it’s just that some of the energy that they put in as mass is coming out as energy. > > What’s interesting is that, if this is true, they’ve achieved what no other nuclear fusion researcher has done yet, and that is produce a fusion reaction that produces more energy than is required to get it started. And all without actually being fusion researchers to begin with. I am not sure your interpretation of the Z-machine experiment is correct. While it is true that the scientists involved are not fusion researchers, they were also not conducting a fusion experiment, in this particular instance. The Los Alamos Z-machine is designed to create extremely high energy x-rays, which, among other things, can be used to simulate astrophysical plasmas. These x-rays interact with a gas, causing it to implode towards some central location. The imploding gas carries some amount of kinetic energy that can be measured. However, scientists doing these experiments noticed that the total amount of energy radiated away by the hot gas is actually three to four times more than the initial kinetic energy. So, something must be giving energy to the gas. In the paper, the researchers propose a model under which energy contained in the plasma’s magnetic field explains the discrepancy. Though fusion has, I believe, been observed to take place in the center of the Z-machine, there are two things I feel I should mention. First, the research done in the article does not attempt to use fusion to explain where the missing energy came from. Second, even if energy from fusion were to play a role in heating the gas, it would not be from fusing tungsten nuclei. Tungsten has atomic number 74, making it a very heavy element. Fusion works best on very light elements such as hydrogen. The absolute limit for exothermic fusion is silicon into iron, atomic number 26. Due to the exceptional stability of the iron nucleus, it is not possible to obtain any energy by fusing iron into a heavier element. It would be amazing if someone found a way to actually produce energy using the Z-machine, but alas, that day is not yet here. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/12 "2006-03-09T06:02:28Z")
Interesting. Thanks for the correction - I admit I don’t know that much about this stuff. Where did you find a link to their paper? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/13 "2006-03-09T06:09:21Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > What’s interesting is that, if this is true, they’ve achieved what no other nuclear fusion researcher has done yet, and that is produce a fusion reaction that produces more energy than is required to get it started. And all without actually being fusion researchers to begin with. Strictly speaking, that’s not true. We’re perfectly capable of creating a fusion reaction that produces more energy than is required to initate it. We cannot, however, create a sustainable reaction from which we could extract energy with which to maintain the reaction. And while the physicists running the project may not be doing fusion development, they’re working in the same general area–high energy plasmas. Regardless, it’s an interesting development, but it doesn’t call for unbridled optimism. Even if they are attaining net energy production it doesn’t necessarily mean that they can extract useful work from it or that it can be sustained for more than an instant, and clearly there is something going on that isn’t yet well-understood; they certainly aren’t obtaining energy from the fusion of the tungsten plasma. My guess is that the plasma is forming some kind of inductive loop with the magnetic fields that the machine creates and attaining higher kinetic energies in that manner. As far as the possibility of energy generating fusion, my hopes are still on muon-catalyzed fusion, but that predicates someone figuring out how to produce muons economically (in an energy-budget sense) which may not be possible. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/14 "2006-03-09T06:12:41Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Followed by, “Hey, what happens if we do _this?_” Gotta love scientists And this is exactly what artists do, too. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/15 "2006-03-09T06:13:21Z")
> [@Procyon](#): > > The absolute limit for exothermic fusion is silicon into iron, atomic number 26. Due to the exceptional stability of the iron nucleus, it is not possible to obtain any energy by fusing iron into a heavier element. And in fact you have to have some [post=7173533]pretty unique conditions[/post] to do that. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/16 "2006-03-09T15:27:10Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > The new temperature record is sort of **cool** , I guess… > (bolding mine) Not exactly the adjective I would have chosen. ---
**Author:** ![Procyon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@Procyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procyon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/17 "2006-03-09T16:55:13Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Where did you find a link to their paper? The abstract is located [here](http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=PRLTAO000096000007075003000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=Yes) , though the full text requires a subscription to the journal. The general idea is there, though. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/18 "2006-03-09T17:59:19Z")
You can e-mail me for the paper. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/19 "2006-03-09T18:06:24Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Followed by, “Hey, what happens if we do _this?_” Gotta love scientists Sometimes followed by, **“DAMN! Quick, pull the fire alarm! Get a HazMat team in here!”** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634/20 "2006-03-09T19:40:02Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Followed by, “Hey, what happens if we do _this?_” Gotta love scientists The line between high-energy physicists and crazy rednecks is thin indeed. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-achieved-3-6-billion-degrees-f/347634.md?page=2)