# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/181 "2019-10-12T21:05:24Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Russia - a win for their client state, Syria > Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border > Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds > Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters > > United States - world humiliation and distrust I hate to beat this drum, or feather your cap because this sucks, but got it in one. Evry bit of it is true. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/182 "2019-10-12T21:06:26Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The Kurds brought it on themselves when they decided not to support George Washington in 1776. It’s because they hate revolution and do not desire a homeland like we did. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/183 "2019-10-12T21:13:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Turkey and the Kurds have been fighting with each other long before our involvement. It’s not our fight. We helped the tri-state area of Kurds against ISIS. Not the other way around. For us to protect them from Turkey in this matter places the United States on their side of a civil war. It means we support the redrawing of boundaries toward the creation of a new country from the land of 3 others. I don’t see how we can do this without turning on an ally and making things worse. If the UN wants a Kurdistan state then let them fight it out. America and western allies committed to defeating ISIS. Kurds were instrumental in that fight and with the aid of arms and intelligence fought hard and won, with a reported 10K in Kurdish casualties. So we owe Kurds a debt larger than just the military aid we provided to them. To say we can do nothing for them and abandon them, only to be attacked by the Turks, is deplorable. It’s reminiscent of the aid Americans provided to the mujahadin in Afghanistan to defeat the Russians, only to abandon them and have it bite us in the ass for years to come. America does not need to turn on Turkey – a fickle ally at best. We just need to make it clear that Turkey cannot attack our Kurdish allies. It was working. Until that orange ass-clown was threatened with having his Istanbul towers re/de-named. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/184 "2019-10-12T21:50:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I mean, their leadership have been willing to join with every damn imperialist at the drop of a hat so was probably an oversight. I felt this was worth quoting. AK84, you are Pakistani, correct? So therefore you do in fact have an educated opinion on what it’s like to be a slave state, then an Imperialist client state, then an independent. In other words, a traditional “area of the world” where your tribes assimilated into what you have today. The Kurds are no different, but because they are stateless, and in some areas practice the “wrong” form of Islam, they are vilified…as I am sure the Brits once (and in some cases, continue to) do to people from your culture, many of which are English/British educated. Would you trade all of that to be in the Kurd’s position right now? Turkey is a nominal ally of yours, India, not so much. This is all happening in your part of the world. I am extremely interested in an opinion from that part of the world. Your comment about them “willing to join every imperialist at the drop of a hat” is a bad start man, especially considering what Pakistani culture went through to get where they are. If Kurdistan was a nation, and Pakistanis “just” an ethnic group with no country, would you feel the same way? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/185 "2019-10-12T21:52:22Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > America and western allies committed to defeating ISIS. Kurds were instrumental in that fight and with the aid of arms and intelligence fought hard and won, with a reported 10K in Kurdish casualties. So we owe Kurds a debt larger than just the military aid we provided to them. To say we can do nothing for them and abandon them, only to be attacked by the Turks, is deplorable. It’s reminiscent of the aid Americans provided to the mujahadin in Afghanistan to defeat the Russians, only to abandon them and have it bite us in the ass for years to come. America does not need to turn on Turkey – a fickle ally at best. We just need to make it clear that Turkey cannot attack our Kurdish allies. It was working. Until that orange ass-clown was threatened with having his Istanbul towers re/de-named. Jesus Tapdancing Christ With Flipping D Titties On A Fucking Pogo Stick…from your keyboard to my ears…well, eyes, I mean…you know… And also, in other words, we would have NEVER done this under ANY other President. He needs to backtrack that shit immediately. Authorize “black” airstrikes, troop insertions, WHATEVER. DO SOMETHING. YOU ARE ABANDONING THEM TO DIE. You also owe them favors. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/186 "2019-10-12T22:18:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > SDF Commander to US: “I need to know if you are capable of protecting my people, of stopping these bombs falling on us or not. I need to know, because if you’re not, I need to make a deal with Russia and the regime now.” > > So to be clear, they can strike a deal with the Russians to fight on their behalf as Syrian Kurds against ISIS and Turkey? Go for it. > > Turkey and the Kurds have been fighting with each other long before our involvement. It’s not our fight. We helped the tri-state area of Kurds against ISIS. Not the other way around. For us to protect them from Turkey in this matter places the United States on their side of a civil war. It means we support the redrawing of boundaries toward the creation of a new country from the land of 3 others. I don’t see how we can do this without turning on an ally and making things worse. If the UN wants a Kurdistan state then let them fight it out. I don’t believe that Erdogan would have ordered the offensive if the U.S. president had been firm in his support for the Kurds in the phone call. He could have said that the Kurds were the U.S.'s friends and there’d be severe consequences if they were attacked (e.g. sanctions or more). There don’t appear to have been any punitive measures imposed on Turkey by the U.S. for their actions. Trump has not condemned it, other than saying it was a “bad idea”, and has basically said “the Kurds and Turks have been fighting for a long time”, so what can you do? (said while standing aside, to let both sides duke it out.) Then saying the Kurds weren’t really U.S. allies because they didn’t fight at Normandy! It’s a disgrace, and a shameful stain on the United States, not to mention strategically self-defeating. I think this episode represents one of the lowest points in U.S. foreign policy history, and there have been a lot of low points in the last couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/187 "2019-10-12T22:22:56Z")
Donald Trump: “The Kurds were our mutual allies in the fight against ISIS. They are off the table and to be protected as such” Erdogan: “Aww, man, well…there goes that invasion I guess…” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/188 "2019-10-12T22:36:48Z")
Joyce Karam, _The National (UAE)_: > [@](#): > > Horrible videos emerging from NE #Syria today of #Turkey proxies field-executing SDF fighters. > > You can hear one saying “another pig gone.” Warning, this is a graphic thread of videos I haven’t posted the link to her Twitter account, since it has auto-playing videos. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/189 "2019-10-12T23:02:37Z")
[Brett McGurk](https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1183112864908894208), former diplomat: > [@](#): > > Turkish state-backed media hails a “successful operation” to “neutralize” an unarmed 35-year old woman working to unite Arabs, Christians, and Kurds in NE Syria. Ms. Hevrin Khalef was reportedly dragged from a vehicle and shot to death. That’s a war crime. [https://twitter.com/yenisafak/status/1183028907693477888?s=21](https://twitter.com/yenisafak/status/1183028907693477888?s=21) … ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/190 "2019-10-12T23:52:06Z")
Kurdish politician, other civilians ‘executed’ by Turkey-backed group > **[Kurdish politician, other civilians ‘executed’ by Turkey-backed group](https://www.timesofisrael.com/kurdish-politician-among-9-civilians-killed-by-turkey-backed-rebels-monitor/)** > > Hevrin Khalaf, her driver and seven others killed by fighters allied with Ankara on road outside Tel Abyad in northern Syria, monitor says ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/191 "2019-10-13T00:31:33Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I don’t believe that Erdogan would have ordered the offensive if the U.S. president had been firm in his support for the Kurds in the phone call. He could have said that the Kurds were the U.S.'s friends and there’d be severe consequences if they were attacked (e.g. sanctions or more). There don’t appear to have been any punitive measures imposed on Turkey by the U.S. for their actions. again, are we in the civil war business? Do we go into Turkey and attack them on behalf of the Kurds? Are we supporting a new country of Kurdistan carved out of Turkey, Syria and Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/192 "2019-10-13T00:49:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > again, are we in the civil war business? Do we go into Turkey and attack them on behalf of the Kurds? Are we supporting a new country of Kurdistan carved out of Turkey, Syria and Iraq? Too late for those questions. The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/193 "2019-10-13T01:02:02Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Too late for those questions. > > The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real. How is it too late for those questions? The answer to those questions are expected when you interfere in a civil war with US troops. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/194 "2019-10-13T09:35:32Z")
In the longer term, the real implications of this are a weakened US position in the Middle East. On one hand, we abandon a strategic ally in the fight against terrorism; on the other, the President demonstrates how easy it is to change US foreign policy with so much as blowing smoke up Trump’s ass in one phone call. The real takeaway is that the US just looks really fucking unstable and weak right now, and that’s something that’s being watched not just in Ankara, but in Berlin, Moscow, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, and Pyongyang. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/195 "2019-10-13T12:58:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How is it too late for those questions? The answer to those questions are expected when you interfere in a civil war with US troops. Because we already interfered. And then, after interfering, pulled them out, essentially taking the side of the oppressors. Why do you ask questions where the answers are obvious? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/196 "2019-10-13T14:16:57Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Too late for those questions. > > The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real. :rolleyes: Yeah, it’s so easy and fulfilling to suggest that other people’s sons die in a foreign land.:mad: Who on earth are **you** to decide what happens to the territory of sovereign nations. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/197 "2019-10-13T14:22:35Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Donald Trump: “The Kurds were our mutual allies in the fight against ISIS. They are off the table and to be protected as such” > > Erdogan: “Aww, man, well…there goes that invasion I guess…” No. It would be, _well then if you are going to be protecting those who wish to see our country divided then I feel we have to rethink our whole alliance_. Goodbye to the secure southern flank of NATO, Russians are able to threaten the entire eastern Mediterranean. The proper thing is to ask 1. Is there anyway that the Kurds can be supported without antagonising Turkey? 2. If the answer to 2 is “No”, then do the Kurds offer anything that would balance out the loss of Turkey as a partner? That seems to have been done and the answer to both questions is of course “Hell no”. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/198 "2019-10-13T14:26:11Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real. The best answer to this was given by General Powell (as he then was). There is no such thing as a “presence”. At best all it does is make all sides hate you. Worst you become target. Either you hi in with sufficient force to ensure your desired objectives can be met, or you get the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/199 "2019-10-13T14:37:26Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Jesus Tapdancing Christ With Flipping D Titties On A Fucking Pogo Stick…from your keyboard to my ears…well, eyes, I mean…you know… > > And also, in other words, we would have NEVER done this under ANY other President. He needs to backtrack that shit immediately. Authorize “black” airstrikes, troop insertions, WHATEVER. DO SOMETHING. YOU ARE ABANDONING THEM TO DIE. You also owe them favors. Consider switching to decaf. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/200 "2019-10-13T15:07:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > again, are we in the civil war business? What civil war? Turkey invaded another country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=11)