# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/201 "2019-10-13T15:36:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > No. It would be, _well then if you are going to be protecting those who wish to see our country divided then I feel we have to rethink our whole alliance_. > > Goodbye to the secure southern flank of NATO, Russians are able to threaten the entire eastern Mediterranean. > > The proper thing is to ask > > 1. Is there anyway that the Kurds can be supported without antagonising Turkey? > 2. If the answer to 2 is “No”, then do the Kurds offer anything that would balance out the loss of Turkey as a partner? > > That seems to have been done and the answer to both questions is of course “Hell no”. The whole point of an ally is that you don’t abandon them the moment that they are not useful. If you do that, then you don’t get allies in the future, and you cannot trust allies not to stab you in the back the moment it becomes in their interest. The same analysis can be said for any other country that is threatened. If Lithuania cannot be supported without antagonizing Russia, do we abandon them unless they can come up with something that would balance it out? Trump got played. He is extremely weak at negotiation, and folds at the slightest bit of push back. We really do have the upper hand in such negotiations. Turkey really does need us more than we need them. It is not an equal situation at all, and we come to the bargaining table with pretty much all the chips, and we yet managed to walk away busted out. Turkey has always had as its analysis: “Can we commit genocide against the Kurds without antagonizing the US?”, and there was no reason for any follow up to that if the answer was no, and until Trump’s betrayal, that has been a firm “Hell No!” Best case scenario is that he betrayed our allies because he was feckless at standing up to a dictator, but it is likely that his personal financial stake in Turkey also played a significant role in his decision to allow the slaughter of those who stood beside us up until just a few days ago. Now that Trump has answered the question as to whether or not we approve of genocide from “Hell No!” to “Sure, as long as we get a cut of the proceeds.”, obviously Turkey’s analysis of the situation has changed, and they will proceed with the extermination of those that risked their lives for us. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/202 "2019-10-13T15:44:58Z")
[Trump](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183369133301391365): > [@Donald Trump](#): > > The Kurds and Turkey have been fighting for many years. Turkey considers the PKK the worst terrorists of all. Others may want to come in and fight for one side or the other. Let them! > … > We have become a far greater Economic Power than ever before, and we are using that power for WORLD PEACE! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/203 "2019-10-13T16:10:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because we already interfered. And then, after interfering, pulled them out, essentially taking the side of the oppressors. > > Why do you ask questions where the answers are obvious? We already interfered in the Turkey/Kurd civil war? I thought we were in Syria to stop ISIS, not the Turks. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/204 "2019-10-13T16:24:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We already interfered in the Turkey/Kurd civil war? I thought we were in Syria to stop ISIS, not the Turks. [Chuck Todd](https://twitter.com/chucktodd/status/1183391436831674375), NBC News: > [@](#): > > Former Defense Secretary Gen. James Mattis talked to me about the withdrawal of U.S. troops from northern Syria. > > “ISIS will resurge. It’s absolutely a given that they will come back." ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/205 "2019-10-13T16:36:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We already interfered in the Turkey/Kurd civil war? I thought we were in Syria to stop ISIS, not the Turks. And we stopped ISIS with the extensive help of the Kurds. We did not interfere with Turkey’s barbaric treatment of the Kurds within its own borders, but our presence did prevent Turkey from invading and killing the Kurds in Syria. That was interfering with their plans for genocide. Turkey complained to Trump that we interfering with their plans for ethnic cleansing, and Trump got out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/206 "2019-10-13T16:43:00Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [Chuck Todd](https://twitter.com/chucktodd/status/1183391436831674375), NBC News: Former Defense Secretary Gen. James Mattis can become Turkish Secretary General and fight ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/207 "2019-10-13T16:48:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We already interfered in the Turkey/Kurd civil war? I thought we were in Syria to stop ISIS, not the Turks. Are you saying that a nation’s actions must be strictly transactional? That there can be no quid without the quo\*? Is there no role for supporting a ‘cause’ (including military support) if the cause is entirely consistent with basic ideas of self-determination and with, you know, ‘liberty’? Are you advocating that US no longer champion freedom beyond its borders? Or are you saying it’s only to be done when it seems to be in the US’s own direct interests? Some disparage the notion of the US being the “world’s policeman” and although I think I understand where that sentiment comes from, it’s not as if the US only gets the ‘moral high ground’ as its reward. There’s also economic, military, and strategic advantages (e.g. the rise of a generally peaceful, unified Europe since WWII), not to mention the benefit there must be to any nation that is a role model for the world. (\* there is definitely no pro in the WH) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/208 "2019-10-13T16:48:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Former Defense Secretary Gen. James Mattis can become Turkish Secretary General and fight ISIS. Looks like your argument in defense of Trump’s decision has run its course. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/209 "2019-10-13T16:59:00Z")
11,000 Kurds died fighting ISIS 12 Americans died. Magiver’s comments are just ahistoric. The fact that he calls an invasion a “civil war” also goes to the worth of the arguments being presented. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/210 "2019-10-13T17:04:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And we stopped ISIS with the extensive help of the Kurds. We did not interfere with Turkey’s barbaric treatment of the Kurds within its own borders, but our presence did prevent Turkey from invading and killing the Kurds in Syria. That was interfering with their plans for genocide. I wasn’t aware they killed off the kurds in Turkey. I thought there was a civil war involving Kurds wanting to start a new country. Could it be we were acting as a shelter in Syria for Kurdish insurgents attacking Turkey and that by doing so were taking sides in the civil war? Here’s a thought, let the UN and it’s troops deal with it and remove the United States as the World’s Policeman. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/211 "2019-10-13T17:05:34Z")
NBC is reporting that the Kurds have invited Syrian forces to come into the disputed territory. This lines up Russia against Turkey. Neat-o. This is going smashingly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/212 "2019-10-13T17:14:51Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > 11,000 Kurds died fighting ISIS. And if we hadn’t gotten involved that number would have been a lot higher as ISIS was trying to create a brutal caliphate. So don’t act like they were doing us a favor. We were supporting them, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/213 "2019-10-13T17:15:04Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > NBC is reporting that the Kurds have invited Syrian forces to come into the disputed territory. This lines up Russia against Turkey. Neat-o. This is going smashingly. Trump’s birthday gift to Putin just keeps on giving. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/214 "2019-10-13T17:15:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And if we hadn’t gotten involved that number would have been a lot higher as ISIS was trying to create a brutal caliphate. > > So don’t act like they were doing us a favor. We were supporting them, not the other way around. To my original point. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/215 "2019-10-13T17:19:22Z")
Anyway, in the real world, the ISIS camps the Kurds maintained (which, as well as preventing Turkey in genociding our allies, required our continued presence), are now falling. I am framing this as the “GOP’s Pro-ISIS Genocide of Kurdish Christians” when I call my Senators and Reps. “An SDF commander has confirmed to me that the Ain Issa camp has fallen and all the detainees (a population of thousands that includes ISIS supporters, ISIS relatives and civilians) have fled. “An unbelievable mess,” the commander said.” [https://t.co/yDehTSKkux](https://t.co/yDehTSKkux) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/216 "2019-10-13T17:27:04Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > NBC is reporting that the Kurds have invited Syrian forces to come into the disputed territory. This lines up Russia against Turkey. Neat-o. This is going smashingly. What disputed territory? Ras al-Ayn is in Syria. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/217 "2019-10-13T17:29:23Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > To my original point. Spell it out. Was your original point that we were backing the Kurds for an independent nation from Turkey? Because that never happened. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/218 "2019-10-13T17:29:23Z")
Will today mark the rebirth of ISIS? AP report : [Islamic State supporters escape in Syria as US pulls back](https://www.apnews.com/7e90fd08a89e49d9bcae6a85a131a64a) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/219 "2019-10-13T17:30:45Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > NBC is reporting that the Kurds have invited Syrian forces to come into the disputed territory. This lines up Russia against Turkey. Neat-o. This is going smashingly. That’s not exactly new. Turkey and Russia have been working at cross-purposes in Syria for years. You may recall that Turkey shot down a Russian jet four years ago. That was a whole lot more serious than Kurds inviting some Syrians into some of the territory they control. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/220 "2019-10-13T17:34:11Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Anyway, in the real world, the ISIS camps the Kurds maintained (which, as well as preventing Turkey in genociding our allies, required our continued presence), are now falling. I am framing this as the “GOP’s Pro-ISIS Genocide of Kurdish Christians” when I call my Senators and Reps. > > “An SDF commander has confirmed to me that the Ain Issa camp has fallen and all the detainees (a population of thousands that includes ISIS supporters, ISIS relatives and civilians) have fled. “An unbelievable mess,” the commander said.” > > [https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/1183337113514889216/photo/1](https://t.co/yDehTSKkux) Turn the prisoners over to Turkey or Syria. The Kurds in Syria are not an independent nation and should not be responsible for this. We’ve created a prison state within a country instead of completing yet another World Police action. What is the purpose of a United Nations group if they can’t be brought in to deal with ISIS. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=12)