# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/361 "2019-10-16T14:25:13Z")
Thought I’d post [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOcA3Jmb33k) video in here, as it goes into this question, though only shallowly. I generally find this channel to be good at a non-US perspective on things happening geopolitically throughout the world. The short answer to the OP is, of course we did. But we had our reasons. Unfortunately, from a US perspective, doing so will, again, make us look weak AND like we aren’t a solid ally to small groups like the Kurds. It will hurt Turkey as well, as their economy was only starting to recover and this will set them back again, big time, if/when sanctions roll in on them. It will help ISIS, as many of it’s fighters are in camps that have been abandoned, which means that they will be free to go back to fighting. The chaos incurred by this is going to be great for them. It will help Syria as well, especially in the north, as the uneasy and fragile truce between Turkey and Syria/Russia wrt the north western parts of Syria controlled by Turkey might be back under assault. Trump has, once again, done the stupid thing and brought chaos to the region. There was a sort of balancing act going on with the US being the cork in the bottle, so to speak. No one wanted to fuck too much with the status quo. With the US pull out, it has and will increasingly become a free for all in the region, with Syrian civilians caught, again, in the middle, and already starting to be displaced (not to mentioned killed in the cross fire). And now the Kurds know we can’t and shouldn’t be trusted either. Assad may survive all of this after all and Russia is going to come out of this smelling like a rose. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/362 "2019-10-16T15:03:50Z")
Thread from former diplomat [Brett McGurk](https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1184148540819476483): > [@Brett McGurk](#): > > Trump administration officials are working overtime to say he never gave the green light to this disastrous gift to ISIS, Russia, and Iran. I don’t envy them. But it’s demonstrably false: > … > Here is the statement from Sunday night with no warning whatsoever. That’s called a green light. > … > US forces then immediately withdrew from the border. US officials in Syria had to inform the SDF they were on their own. This despite the SDF having removed all defenses from the border region (at US request) on assurance that Turkey would NOT attack. > … > The US military was hailing the joint cooperation with Turkey in this very stretch of border just one day before Trump spoke with Erdogan. Trump clearly never backed up this effort. > … > Even two days into the attack, ALL of our western allies in the UN Security Council stood in solidarity to condemn it. The US was notably absent. Why? > … > Given the predictable consequences now unfolding before the entire world, if it’s true that Trump warned Erdogan not to invade northeast Syria, release the transcript of the call. Let’s see. > … > It either shows Erdogan defying a clear warning from the President of the United States (doubtful), or it shows a President who was totally unprepared and impervious to the real-world consequence of making national security decisions without considered thought or consultation. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/363 "2019-10-16T17:24:04Z")
I can’t help but think that Erdoğan has a recording or other evidence of Trump blatantly abusing his office or committing a crime and has threatened to use it. The release of such evidence now might flip enough Republican Senators to remove the buffoon from office. What else could explain all this? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/364 "2019-10-16T17:35:50Z")
Trump just argued that the Kurds are worse terrorists than ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/365 "2019-10-16T17:57:51Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I can’t help but think that Erdoğan has a recording or other evidence of Trump blatantly abusing his office or committing a crime and has threatened to use it. The release of such evidence now might flip enough Republican Senators to remove the buffoon from office. What else could explain all this? No, I think Erdogan’s hold over Trump is [Trump’s real estate holdings in Turkey](https://www.trump.com/residential-real-estate-portfolio/trump-towers-istanbul-turkey). All Erdogan needs to do is threaten to raise Trump’s property taxes and Trump would sell out anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/366 "2019-10-16T17:59:22Z")
“Syria may have some help with Russia and that’s fine,” Trump said. “It’s a lot of sand. They’ve got a lot of sand over there, so there’s a lot of sand they can play with.” [https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-10-16/trump-says-russian-syria-expansion-after-u-s-departs-is-fine](https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-10-16/trump-says-russian-syria-expansion-after-u-s-departs-is-fine) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/367 "2019-10-16T18:02:04Z")
That’s the so-called president of the United States right there. Apologies, rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/368 "2019-10-16T18:10:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And who would they be? This is JAQing off and the perfect example of bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/369 "2019-10-16T19:04:19Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Trump’s ego certainly makes him easier to manipulate. And Putin is a master manipulator. People who think they are smart, and aren’t, are the biggest chumps. In the good old days Trump’s aides would all be hauled before HUAC. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/370 "2019-10-16T19:09:31Z")
[NPR](https://twitter.com/nprpolitics/status/1184543456154279937): > [@](#): > > JUST IN: The House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved a resolution opposing the Trump administration’s removal of troops from Syria, allowing Turkey to target the Kurds. > > The vote on the non-binding measure was 354-60 with 4 members voting present. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/371 "2019-10-16T19:30:50Z")
> [@margin](#): > > This is JAQing off and the perfect example of bad faith. Do not personalize your arguments in this way. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/372 "2019-10-16T19:34:03Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [NPR](https://twitter.com/nprpolitics/status/1184543456154279937): Even before the vote, it was pretty obvious that President Trump’s Syrian troop “withdrawal” / repositioning was at odds with the bulk of the inside-the-beltway opinion on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/373 "2019-10-16T19:36:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Even before the vote, it was pretty obvious that President Trump’s Syrian troop “withdrawal” / repositioning was at odds with the bulk of the inside-the-beltway opinion on the matter. Outside the beltway too. Only in Trumpland do they find a way to justify abandoning our allies to slaughter. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/374 "2019-10-16T19:41:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Even before the vote, it was pretty obvious that President Trump’s Syrian troop “withdrawal” / repositioning was at odds with the bulk of the inside-the-beltway opinion on the matter. Pretty much the only people who thought this was a good idea were Syria, Russia and Iran. Maybe China, though most likely they don’t care but love to see the US look weak. Other than that, only those trying to defend Trump despite this being indefensible, and the man himself who is clueless and probably didn’t even think it through before deciding on a moments notice to just pull the trigger on our withdrawal from the region thought this was a good thing. Sorry, but he fucked up…again. Big time. And it’s going to cost him and the country quite a lot down the road. Probably a lot more than folks realize, as it will again show that the US isn’t to be trusted or relied on if you are a small fry, despite the fact that the US came to you initially to fix some problem it didn’t want to deal with directly. Which is what we’ve asked of the Kurds, not just in Syria but in the region. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/375 "2019-10-16T20:00:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do not personalize your arguments in this way. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. > > [/moderating] This isn’t personalizing an argument. It’s an established way of phrasing the [“Just Asking Questions”](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions) debate tactic that many consider fallacious, no different than accusing someone of any debate fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/376 "2019-10-16T20:02:43Z")
So… the House has[passed a resolution](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/syria-troop-withdrawal-house-resolution/index.html)opposing the removal of troops from Syria And Trump has recently ordered US troops into Saudi Arabia, bragging that the US is getting money from the Saudi’s for this. My question is - is the entire US military at the exclusive beck and call of Trump, by virtue of his being “commander in chief”? Are there no limits whatsoever on his control over the military? For example, if Trump does not like the results of the upcoming Canadian election, could he order via tweet that the military would now mass on the Canadian border, and move in to take control of all major Canadian cities? He’d state, of course, that this was NOT “war” Most definitely not. His administration would explain that is was all perfectly legal. And Fox News would agree that it was perfectly legal. And maybe congress would pass a resolution condemning it. But could he just order it, and the military would do as they were told? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/377 "2019-10-16T20:04:42Z")
So… again. It seems that it is now against the rules to accuse someone of committing a logical fallacy like “Just Asking Questions” Any other logical fallacies that we are not allowed to use? Can we say that an argument is a “straw man argument” or is that too insulting? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/378 "2019-10-16T20:06:58Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So… again. > > It seems that it is now against the rules to accuse someone of committing a logical fallacy like “Just Asking Questions” Any other logical fallacies that we are not allowed to use? Can we say that an argument is a “straw man argument” or is that too insulting? I think **Bone** was just unfamiliar with the phrase… If we cannot point out logical fallacies in posts, may as well close up the forum. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/379 "2019-10-16T20:08:41Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I think **Bone** was just unfamiliar with the phrase… If we cannot point out logical fallacies in posts, may as well close up the forum. No, I doubt he was unfamiliar with the phrase. I certainly knew what the poster was talking about. And the post was, rightfully, censured but no warning was issued. Seems appropriate to me, and I agree with the poster in question. Also, this isn’t exactly the place for this discussion… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/380 "2019-10-16T20:10:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > … My question is - is the entire US military at the exclusive beck and call of Trump, by virtue of his being “commander in chief”? Are there no limits whatsoever on his control over the military? For example, if Trump does not like the results of the upcoming Canadian election, could he order via tweet that the military would now mass on the Canadian border, and move in to take control of all major Canadian cities? He’d state, of course, that this was NOT “war” Most definitely not. His administration would explain that is was all perfectly legal. And Fox News would agree that it was perfectly legal. And maybe congress would pass a resolution condemning it. But could he just order it, and the military would do as they were told? The President has broad control over the military. Congress passed the War Powers Resolution in 1973 over Nixon’s veto to try to put some limits on that, but it has been ignored / sidestepped by various presidents in the past. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=20)