# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/381 "2019-10-16T20:10:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Even before the vote, it was pretty obvious that President Trump’s Syrian troop “withdrawal” / repositioning was at odds with the bulk of the inside-the-beltway opinion on the matter. To be honest, I’d be much more inclined to trust the judgement of Congress members, many of whom serve on Foreign Affairs and Intelligence committees, on the subject of Middle-Eastern affairs than a bunch of MAGA-hatted farmers who probably couldn’t even pinpoint the Middle East on a world map. [Here’s](http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2019/roll560.xml) a more detailed breakdown of the results: > [@](#): > > Yeas (Total: 354) > > Democratic: 225 > Republican: 129 > > Nays (Total: 60) > > Republican: 60 > > Present (Total: 4) > > Republican: 3 > Independent: 1 > > Not voting (Total: 14) > > Democratic: 9 > Republican: 5 So 129 Republican Congress members voted against Trump’s decision, and 60 supported it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/382 "2019-10-16T20:17:29Z")
As for your specific example of invading Canada, the President could almost certainly mass troops on the border. If he wanted to actually invade, absent Congressional support, he’d need “a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” Presumably the Canadians wouldn’t be stupid enough to give him such cover (but then, presumably neither were the Libyans, and it didn’t do them a damn bit of good). He’d have to notify Congress within 48 hours, and in theory has only 60 days to complete the operation (I’d be disappointed if the US military couldn’t take control of all major Canadian cities within 60 days, given adequate planning and build-up) Some possible avenues of Congressional response to such an act would be: prohibiting the use of any funds for military operations in Canada, censure, impeachment, removal from office, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/383 "2019-10-16T20:36:11Z")
[Donald Trump](https://twitter.com/dave_brown24/status/1184494365642637312), U.S. President: > [@](#): > > “I view the situation on the Turkish border with Syria to be, for the United States, strategically brilliant. Our soldiers are out of there. Our soldiers are totally safe” [Brett McGurk](https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1184525233518239744), former diplomat: > [@](#): > > Trump has no idea what’s happening. US personnel have been scrambling to evacuate positions surrounded by hostile Turkish-backed opposition forces. They are evacuating under duress and then bombing positions so nobody can seize them. [Dion Nissenbaum](https://twitter.com/DionNissenbaum/status/1184546878991585280), _Wall Street Journal_: > [@](#): > > Remarkable day in Syria: The US military carried out airstrikes to destroy the headquarters for its counter-ISIS campaign after Turkish backed forces closed in on the base. US military says it is carrying out “deliberate withdrawal.” [U.S. Mission to the UN](https://twitter.com/USUN/status/1184536755082612737): > [@](#): > > The United States calls on #Turkey to halt its military offensive in Syria. Turkey is undermining the campaign to defeat ISIS, endangering innocent civilians and threatening peace, security and stability. Those responsible for #HumanRights abuses must be held accountable. #UNSC [Nancy Pelosi](https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1184546092525993986): > [@](#): > > I am deeply concerned that the White House has canceled an all-Member classified briefing on the dangerous situation the President has caused in Syria, denying the Congress its right to be informed as it makes decisions about our national security. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/384 "2019-10-16T20:50:25Z")
Trump has certainly managed to shift the focus from his Ukraine fuckup. Now he’s got a fuckup in a whole 'nother area, and perhaps can be impeached for incompetence for something unrelated to Ukraine! It’s a win/win for America. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/385 "2019-10-16T20:54:25Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > This isn’t personalizing an argument. It’s an established way of phrasing the [“Just Asking Questions”](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions) debate tactic that many consider fallacious, no different than accusing someone of any debate fallacy. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So… again. > > It seems that it is now against the rules to accuse someone of committing a logical fallacy like “Just Asking Questions” Any other logical fallacies that we are not allowed to use? Can we say that an argument is a “straw man argument” or is that too insulting? > [@XT](#): > > No, I doubt he was unfamiliar with the phrase. I certainly knew what the poster was talking about. And the post was, rightfully, censured but no warning was issued. Seems appropriate to me, and I agree with the poster in question. > > Also, this isn’t exactly the place for this discussion… Questions or comments about moderation belong in ATMB. No more in this thread. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/386 "2019-10-16T21:19:38Z")
[Trish Regan](https://twitter.com/trish_regan/status/1184559361638748161), _FOXBusiness_: > [@](#): > > EXCLUSIVE: I have obtained a copy of ⁦@realDonaldTrump⁩’s letter to #Erdogan. ⁦@POTUS⁩ warns him to not “be a tough guy! Don’t be a fool!” Says he could destroy Turkey’s economy if #Syria is not resolved in a humane way. Letter’s dated 9th October, so three days after Trump greenlit the Turkish invasion. Unless someone’s hijacked Trish Regan’s account, I presume it’s legit. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/387 "2019-10-16T21:39:58Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [Trish Regan](https://twitter.com/trish_regan/status/1184559361638748161), _FOXBusiness_: > > Letter’s dated 9th October, so three days after Trump greenlit the Turkish invasion. > > Unless someone’s hijacked Trish Regan’s account, I presume it’s legit. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. That letter is so insanely juvenile. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/388 "2019-10-16T21:53:03Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > To be honest, I’d be much more inclined to trust the judgement of Congress members, many of whom serve on Foreign Affairs and Intelligence committees, on the subject of Middle-Eastern affairs than a bunch of MAGA-hatted farmers who probably couldn’t even pinpoint the Middle East on a world map. … [The House Committee on International Relations approved the Iraq war resolution 31-11](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/107th-congress/house-report/721). I could probably look up various other foreign interventions that ended badly after Congressional endorsement. I don’t feel particularly inclined to “trust the judgement of Congress members”. Anyways, I appreciate your posting the vote totals. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/389 "2019-10-16T22:10:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [The House Committee on International Relations approved the Iraq war resolution 31-11](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/107th-congress/house-report/721). I could probably look up various other foreign interventions that ended badly after Congressional endorsement. I don’t feel particularly inclined to “trust the judgement of Congress members”. Anyways, I appreciate your posting the vote totals. I don’t think the Iraq War is a good comparison. With regard to Iraq, Congress was voting based on intelligence assessments about whether Iraq was developing hidden weapons of mass destruction. These intelligence assessments turned out to be inaccurate. In this Turkey/Kurdish case, they don’t need assessments by intelligence agencies to evaluate what’s going on - the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/390 "2019-10-16T22:25:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [The House Committee on International Relations approved the Iraq war resolution 31-11](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/107th-congress/house-report/721). I could probably look up various other foreign interventions that ended badly after Congressional endorsement. I don’t feel particularly inclined to “trust the judgement of Congress members”. Anyways, I appreciate your posting the vote totals. As it happened, we also had an ill-informed President at that time that Republican partisans lined up to support regardless of the facts. Not the best example for you to use. But I guess when people are forced to defend MAGA nonsense, they go with whatever is at hand. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/391 "2019-10-16T22:26:13Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I don’t think the Iraq War is a good comparison. With regard to Iraq, Congress was voting based on intelligence assessments about whether Iraq was developing hidden weapons of mass destruction. These intelligence assessments turned out to be inaccurate. > > In this Turkey/Kurdish case, they don’t need assessments by intelligence agencies to evaluate what’s going on - the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see. Certainly there are some appreciable differences between the Kurdish situation and the Iraq war. That being said, I’m skeptical that “the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see”. Personally I think there’s precious little good information about the military actions taking place in northern / eastern Syria. Do we even know, for example, how many Turkish troops have crossed the border into Syria? Is it a company or several brigades? Where has there been fighting? How many casualties have there been? Are there any documented massacres of civilians? If so, how many were killed? I know we’re getting some scattered reports, but those don’t really provide an accurate gauge of “what’s going on” IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/392 "2019-10-16T22:26:15Z")
Looks like Trump may have leaked the Erdogan letter himself. [Jill Colvin](https://twitter.com/colvinj/status/1184590592032104448), _AP_: > [@](#): > > Per the same source, Trump handed out copies of the letter he’d sent to Erdogan at today’s meeting in what was interpreted as an attempt to show everyone how tough he’d been. [Soner Cagaptay](https://twitter.com/SonerCagaptay/status/1184578649435058182), Turkey expert: > [@](#): > > This Trump letter to Erdogan is the most damaging correspondance that could’ve been leaked ahead of VP Pence’s visit to Ankara tomorrow. Now, Erdogan has no option but to delay ceasefire in Syria less he be humiliated in front of his nation as weak and bowing to America’s threat ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/393 "2019-10-16T22:37:43Z")
The letter was delivered last week, meaning that the answer has always been “Naw, we’re good.” The more Donald Trump shows how his Presidency works… from sharpies to transcripts to letters… the worse it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/394 "2019-10-16T22:38:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Certainly there are some appreciable differences between the Kurdish situation and the Iraq war. That being said, I’m skeptical that “the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see”. Personally I think there’s precious little good information about the military actions taking place in northern / eastern Syria. Do we even know, for example, how many Turkish troops have crossed the border into Syria? Is it a company or several brigades? Where has there been fighting? How many casualties have there been? Are there any documented massacres of civilians? If so, how many were killed? > > I know we’re getting some scattered reports, but those don’t really provide an accurate gauge of “what’s going on” IMHO. The important fact is that by withdrawing 50 troops who were in no danger, a war was started. The Trump Surrender resulted in unnecessary deaths. How many death are acceptable to the MAGA crowd is really the only question. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/395 "2019-10-16T22:44:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Certainly there are some appreciable differences between the Kurdish situation and the Iraq war. That being said, I’m skeptical that “the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see”. Personally I think there’s precious little good information about the military actions taking place in northern / eastern Syria. Do we even know, for example, how many Turkish troops have crossed the border into Syria? Is it a company or several brigades? Where has there been fighting? How many casualties have there been? Are there any documented massacres of civilians? If so, how many were killed? > > I know we’re getting some scattered reports, but those don’t really provide an accurate gauge of “what’s going on” IMHO. Certainly the _Fox News_ website has been hardly covering the recent events in Syria (and I’ve been checking every day to compare their coverage with other news outlets in the U.S. and around the world). Here’s the [Wikipedia page on the Turkish offensive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Turkish_offensive_into_north-eastern_Syria), with more in-depth detail, including reported casualty numbers - including civilians - and a daily map of Turkish control. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/396 "2019-10-16T22:46:07Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I don’t think the Iraq War is a good comparison. With regard to Iraq, Congress was voting based on intelligence assessments about whether Iraq was developing hidden weapons of mass destruction. These intelligence assessments turned out to be inaccurate. They were also voting in the wake of 9/11 still being on everyone’s minds. I think that some decisions were made in haste and without a fully rational accounting of the possible effects. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Certainly there are some appreciable differences between the Kurdish situation and the Iraq war. That being said, I’m skeptical that “the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see”. Personally I think there’s precious little good information about the military actions taking place in northern / eastern Syria. Do we even know, for example, how many Turkish troops have crossed the border into Syria? Is it a company or several brigades? Where has there been fighting? How many casualties have there been? Are there any documented massacres of civilians? If so, how many were killed? > > I know we’re getting some scattered reports, but those don’t really provide an accurate gauge of “what’s going on” IMHO. Yeah, it’s hard to tell exactly what is going on. We don’t have many people in the area, and it’s not a really safe place for press either. These scattered reports come to us at great risk from those who are willing to endure great hardship and danger to inform us of what is going on. To ask them for more is not reasonable, and it is even less reasonable to discount their reporting because some news agency used the wrong video clip along with it. You know who does have all the info that you want? Trump and his administration. They could tell you exactly how many Turks have crossed the border, how many casualties there have been, verify the massacres of civilians. He does have that information from his intelligence agencies. Ask him to share that info with the American public, if this is something you need to know before you decide whether or not it was a good idea to turn our backs on the Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/397 "2019-10-16T22:46:25Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Looks like Trump may have leaked the Erdogan letter himself. > > [Jill Colvin](https://twitter.com/colvinj/status/1184590592032104448), _AP_: > > [Soner Cagaptay](https://twitter.com/SonerCagaptay/status/1184578649435058182), Turkey expert: The bottom of that letter should read: Dictated, not read, no brain cells used. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/398 "2019-10-16T22:52:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The important fact is that by withdrawing 50 troops who were in no danger, a war was started. The Trump Surrender resulted in unnecessary deaths. How many death are acceptable to the MAGA crowd is really the only question. I don’t think “who were in no danger” is remotely accurate. We’ve had Americans killed in Syria in [2016](https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2016/11/25/US-service-member-killed-in-blast-in-Syria-.html), [2017](https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-service-member-killed-accident-syria/story?id=47658836), [2018](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/30/politics/syria-coalition-ied/index.html), and [2019](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/american-service-members-killed-bomb-blast-northern-syria/story?id=60444620). It’s literally a war zone for fuck’s sake. Is a trickle of dead Americans worth keeping the Kurds, Turks, and Syrians at relative peace? I don’t know. I’d probably have been inclined to leave the status quo ante in place if I were in charge, but I can’t really find fault with someone for saying, essentially, “no, it’s not our responsibility.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/399 "2019-10-16T22:56:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think “who were in no danger” is remotely accurate. We’ve had Americans killed in Syria in [2016](https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2016/11/25/US-service-member-killed-in-blast-in-Syria-.html), [2017](https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-service-member-killed-accident-syria/story?id=47658836), [2018](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/30/politics/syria-coalition-ied/index.html), and [2019](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/american-service-members-killed-bomb-blast-northern-syria/story?id=60444620). > > Is a trickle of dead Americans worth keeping the Kurds, Turks, and Syrians at relative peace? I don’t know. I’d probably have been inclined to leave the status quo ante in place if I were in charge, but I can’t really find fault with someone for saying, essentially, “no, it’s not our responsibility.” One question. Do you think that it is our responsibility that the Kurds have few defenses against a Turkish invasion, specifically because we convinced them to get rid of them? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/400 "2019-10-16T23:08:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is a trickle of dead Americans worth keeping the Kurds, Turks, and Syrians at relative peace? Have you forgotten why the United States was in Syria in the first place? To fight ISIL/ISIS. While Trump says he has “[defeated 100% of the ISIS Caliphate](https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1183822488192671745)”, the U.S. military, as well as security analysts and many prominent Republican Congress members, say that ISIS is not yet defeated and will resurge with U.S. withdrawal. Whose opinion do you trust on the current condition of ISIS - Trump, or U.S. military/security analysts/Congress? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=21)