# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/401 "2019-10-16T23:14:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > One question. Do you think that it is our responsibility that the Kurds have few defenses against a Turkish invasion, specifically because we convinced them to get rid of them? No, I don’t think so. I admit though, I’m a bit fuzzy on the specifics of the claim “we convinced them to get rid of them”, and I’d be interested in reviewing a reference or two on that subject you felt like providing them. To offer a rough historical analog, we convinced Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons after the collapse of the USSR, but I don’t think that puts us under an obligation to risk American lives to protect them from Russian aggression either. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/402 "2019-10-16T23:17:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I don’t think so. I admit though, I’m a bit fuzzy on the specifics of the claim “we convinced them to get rid of them”, and I’d be interested in reviewing a reference or two on that subject you felt like providing them. To offer a rough historical analog, we convinced Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons after the collapse of the USSR, but I don’t think that puts us under an obligation to risk American lives to protect them from Russian aggression either. We convinced the Kurds (these specific ones…as opposed to the ones in Iraq we got to help us there) to fight our battles in Syria, then, in an example of truly monumental stupidity we upended the status quo that had held everyone in check and basically enabled the Turks to go in and slaugher them. Oh, and let the Syrians and Russians start pushing north again. Oh, and probably have given ISIS their second, or perhaps third chance to take advantage of the chaos. How this helps America is a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/403 "2019-10-16T23:24:01Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I don’t think the Iraq War is a good comparison. With regard to Iraq, Congress was voting based on intelligence assessments about whether Iraq was developing hidden weapons of mass destruction. These intelligence assessments turned out to be inaccurate. > > In this Turkey/Kurdish case, they don’t need assessments by intelligence agencies to evaluate what’s going on - the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see. Without false equivalences, Republicans would have no equivalences. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/404 "2019-10-16T23:24:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I don’t think so. I admit though, I’m a bit fuzzy on the specifics of the claim “we convinced them to get rid of them”, and I’d be interested in reviewing a reference or two on that subject you felt like providing them. To offer a rough historical analog, we convinced Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons after the collapse of the USSR, but I don’t think that puts us under an obligation to risk American lives to protect them from Russian aggression either. So if you tell your neighbor that he should get rid of his guns because you will maintain the peace on his property, and he gets rid of his guns, you maintain that you are not obligated to maintain the peace on his property? Because… Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/405 "2019-10-16T23:25:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Certainly there are some appreciable differences between the Kurdish situation and the Iraq war. That being said, I’m skeptical that “the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see”. Oh yeah, that ABC News video sure does sow doubt that any of this is happening. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/406 "2019-10-16T23:26:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We convinced the Kurds (these specific ones…as opposed to the ones in Iraq we got to help us there) to fight our battles in Syria, then, in an example of truly monumental stupidity we upended the status quo that had held everyone in check and basically enabled the Turks to go in and slaugher them. Oh, and let the Syrians and Russians start pushing north again. Oh, and probably have given ISIS their second, or perhaps third chance to take advantage of the chaos. > > How this helps America is a mystery to me. In case it wasn’t clear, the request for a cite was with regard to “the Kurds have few defenses against a Turkish invasion, specifically because we convinced them to get rid of them”. Did we do something to convince the Kurds to reduce / eliminate defenses against a Turkish invasion (aside from withdrawing the American troops in the area that have been essentially acting as human shields)? And it’s not that I disbelieve k9bfriender’s claim necessarily, I just haven’t heard any specifics about what defenses we may have convinced the Kurds to get rid of, and I’m curious what that refers to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/407 "2019-10-16T23:27:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The important fact is that by withdrawing 50 troops who were in no danger, a war was started. The Trump Surrender resulted in unnecessary deaths. How many death are acceptable to the MAGA crowd is really the only question. Do you mean deaths of brown people very far away? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/408 "2019-10-16T23:33:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In case it wasn’t clear, the request for a cite was with regard to “the Kurds have few defenses against a Turkish invasion, specifically because we convinced them to get rid of them”. Did we do something to convince the Kurds to reduce / eliminate defenses against a Turkish invasion (aside from withdrawing the American troops in the area that have been essentially acting as human shields)? > > And it’s not that I disbelieve k9bfriender’s claim necessarily, I just haven’t heard any specifics about what defenses we may have convinced the Kurds to get rid of, and I’m curious what that refers to. Well, I’ll let him answer that one, but WE destroyed a bunch of our bases to keep them out of anyone’s hands. We also did convince the Kurds not to fortify from the north (i.e. from where the Turks would be coming from), saying we’d be there and the Turks wouldn’t attack while we were there. Which was true enough. If you need a cite for that I can probably dig it up, but it’s pretty widely known. This goes back to police that predates Trump in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/409 "2019-10-16T23:41:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In case it wasn’t clear, the request for a cite was with regard to “the Kurds have few defenses against a Turkish invasion, specifically because we convinced them to get rid of them”. Did we do something to convince the Kurds to reduce / eliminate defenses against a Turkish invasion (aside from withdrawing the American troops in the area that have been essentially acting as human shields)? Yes. Under a deal agreed a couple of months ago - brokered by the U.S. - Kurdish military forces withdrew from the border area with Turkey and removed fortifications. _[Military Times](https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2019/10/07/syrias-kurds-stand-to-lose-all-gains-from-us-pullout-near-turkish-border/)_: > [@](#): > > The U.S. and Turkey had been working on a compromise “security mechanism” for the border region that the Kurds had hoped would avert any Turkish offensive. Since August, joint U.S and Turkish aerial and ground patrols had started in a 125-kilometer (78-mile) zone. The SDF had cooperated, removing fortifications from the areas and withdrawing with heavy weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/410 "2019-10-16T23:53:34Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Yes. Under a deal agreed a couple of months ago - brokered by the U.S. - Kurdish military forces withdrew from the border area with Turkey and removed fortifications. Oh, so y’all didn’t just fuck 'em, you fucked 'em right in the face then. Cool. Cool. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/411 "2019-10-16T23:57:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I don’t think so. I admit though, I’m a bit fuzzy on the specifics of the claim “we convinced them to get rid of them”, and I’d be interested in reviewing a reference or two on that subject you felt like providing them. To offer a rough historical analog, we convinced Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons after the collapse of the USSR, but I don’t think that puts us under an obligation to risk American lives to protect them from Russian aggression either. XT answered the Kurdish part but I feel I should mention that the Ukraine deal was entirely a non-interference agreement. Give up the nukes and we’ll leave you alone. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/412 "2019-10-17T00:13:57Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. That letter is so insanely juvenile. I almost still don’t believe the letter is real, even after reading about it on foxnews. The only thing this letter didn’t have was boxes at the bottom labeled “yes” “no” and “maybe”. “call me, maybe?” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/413 "2019-10-17T00:28:53Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > I almost still don’t believe the letter is real, even after reading about it on foxnews. The only thing this letter didn’t have was boxes at the bottom labeled “yes” “no” and “maybe”. > > “call me, maybe?” > > :smack: Also, Trump trying to persuade authoritarian “strongman” leader Erdogan to change his mind by saying: “don’t be a tough guy.” And then Trump deliberately leaking that letter so everyone knows that if Erdogan backs down and stops the invasion, he’s “not a tough guy”. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/414 "2019-10-17T00:51:00Z")
[Jim Sciutto](https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1184583695392563201), _CNN_: > [@](#): > > Listen to this exchange between Trump & the Defense Secretary & make a case the President has a handle on the situation in Syria: > > -POTUS claimed the ISIS prisoners who escaped are “the least dangerous” ones > -Pressed by Schumer, in front of Trump, Esper said: “I don’t know that.” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/415 "2019-10-17T01:04:15Z")
[Sarah Ferris](https://twitter.com/sarahnferris/status/1184562627609059333), _Politico_: > [@](#): > > “He was shaken up by it,” Pelosi says on the House’s overwhelming vote to condemn WH withdrawal from Syria. > > “And that’s why we couldn’t continue in the meeting, because he was just not relating to the reality of it.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/416 "2019-10-17T01:50:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d probably have been inclined to leave the status quo ante in place if I were in charge, but I can’t really find fault with someone for saying, essentially, “no, it’s not our responsibility.” How is it not our responsibility to discuss such matters with our allies before taking an action that literally got our allies killed? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/417 "2019-10-17T02:23:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you approve or disapprove of protecting American assets from attack in the Persian Gulf? […US troops bombed their own anti-ISIS headquarters as Turkey-backed fighters closed in during Trump’s hasty retreat.](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/us-bombed-its-anti-isis-headquarters-as-turkish-troops-advanced-2019-10?r=US&IR=T) Protecting American assets from attack by bombing them themselves first. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/418 "2019-10-17T02:32:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just curious, which UN military action was that? Was it one of the ones where they did nothing while civilians were massacred? Sounds like Rawanda ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/419 "2019-10-17T03:40:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > […US troops bombed their own anti-ISIS headquarters as Turkey-backed fighters closed in during Trump’s hasty retreat.](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/us-bombed-its-anti-isis-headquarters-as-turkish-troops-advanced-2019-10?r=US&IR=T) > > Protecting American assets from attack by bombing them themselves first. LOL. Sounds like a Milo Minderbinder operation. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/420 "2019-10-17T04:12:54Z")
Trump’s sudden decision to greenlight the Turkish invasion and pull out U.S. troops from Syria was made without consultation with his advisers and the military, who were caught by surprise by it. The Erdogan letter is also clearly personally dictated by Trump, rather than being written in a formal way by policy-making staff as is the norm when writing a letter to another head of state. It’s a one-man foreign policy, and that man is both profoundly ignorant and unhinged. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=22)