# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/441 "2019-10-17T19:37:18Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > So the cease fire involves the Kurds doing something. Not the Turks doing anything. “Sanctions on Turkey will be lifted as soon as the Kurds surrender to Turkey! Great deal! Congratulations to everyone! Ethnic cleansing mission complete!” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/442 "2019-10-17T19:48:28Z")
[Brett McGurk](https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1184903085660852224): > [@](#): > > The US just ratified Turkey’s plan to effectively extend its border 30km into Syria with no ability to meaningfully influence facts on the ground. Turkey says it’s the entire border from the Euphrates to Iraq (450x30km) to be controlled by its military forces. Non-implementable. [Steve Herman](https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1184899828947525635), _VOA_: > [@](#): > > The safe zone will have a depth of 32 km, from east of the Euphrates to the border with #Iraq, explains @MevlutCavusoglu\* [Turkish Foreign Minister]\* [Zeke Miller](https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1184903022817824771), _AP_: > [@](#): > > Pence said Turkey agreed not to take action against Kobani. Turkish FM denies they agreed to that. 32 km x 450 km = 14,400‬ km² ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/443 "2019-10-17T20:31:58Z")
I’ve been reading about that cease-fire, and it says this: > [@](#): > > The deal is for a 120-hour cease-fire, during which time the Kurdish-led forces could pull back from the roughly 20-mile-wide safe zone on the Turkish-Syrian border But it doesn’t seem like the Kurds were part of the meeting nor did they agree to that cease-fire. How can that be? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/444 "2019-10-17T20:43:57Z")
The cease fire is an opportunity to evacuate Kurdish civilians and wounded. The Kurds don’t have to withdraw. They can nullify the agreement. “Nope, we aren’t budging”. What can Turkey do? Shoot at them? Oh wait, that’s happening anyway. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/445 "2019-10-17T21:18:08Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The cease fire is an opportunity to evacuate Kurdish civilians and wounded. The Kurds don’t have to withdraw. They can nullify the agreement. “Nope, we aren’t budging”. > > What can Turkey do? Shoot at them? Oh wait, that’s happening anyway. I don’t think the Kurd’s have the choice to simply say ‘Nope, we aren’t budging’, as Turkey has a much more powerful military, and, as noted earlier, we fucked them by talking them out of building defenses. They are going to have to retreat and take whatever ceasefire they can get in the short term. This has been a sad cluster fuck all around, and I’m frankly mystified how anyone could spin this to make the US come out of this to the good. Myself, I’m leaning towards Turkey having personally threatened Trump’s Turkish property as to why he did what he did, as nothing else makes any sense. Certainly not this knee jerk monkey fucking a football travesty of a pull out, with little preparation or even notice. Hell, we put our own troops at pretty great risk doing this idiotic thing, let alone fucking over an ally. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/446 "2019-10-18T00:29:27Z")
Flashback to August 2019: [New Pentagon report blames Trump troop withdrawal for ISIS surge in Iraq and Syria](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/456809-new-pentagon-report-blames-trump-for-return-of-isis-in-iraq-and-syria) (_The Hill_, 08/09/19): > [@](#): > > A new report released by the Department of Defense this week revealed that the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has been emboldened by the partial removal of U.S. troops from Syria and policy shifts in Iraq. > > The report, released by the Pentagon’s inspector general, details how the drawdown of U.S. troops has forced the Trump administration to rely on third-party monitoring of some areas, including a refugee camp set up by U.S.-backed forces. > > The scaling back of U.S. forces, the report continued, has allowed ISIS forces in the area to recruit new members and grow their forces without U.S. interference. Trump to Pelosi yesterday: “[I hate ISIS more than you do.](https://twitter.com/RebeccaRKaplan/status/1184589053955596288)” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/447 "2019-10-18T01:28:08Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Sounds like Rawanda Is that how Trump spells it? 😉 > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Trump’s sudden decision to greenlight the Turkish invasion and pull out U.S. troops from Syria was made without consultation with his advisers and the military, who were caught by surprise by it. The Erdogan letter is also clearly personally dictated by Trump, rather than being written in a formal way by policy-making staff as is the norm when writing a letter to another head of state. It’s a one-man foreign policy, and that man is both profoundly ignorant and unhinged. At this point, I would not be surprised at all if Trump starts appointing himself as acting secretary of more than a few federal departments. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m on board with the idea that “we should have talked to our allies first.” It’s probably worth mentioning here that Turkey is also a nominal ally, and we did apparently have some discussion with them about the matter beforehand, but anyways … it’s been quite obvious to me for some time now that President Trump overvalues / misuses the element of surprise when it comes to diplomacy / military matters, at least at times. His springing this on the world suddenly seems to be another case of that. It’s one of the aspects of his governing approach / personality that I don’t particularly care for. Are you serious? “Element of surprise” should have no place in governing a country. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s very probable. I consider the dems’ agenda generally destructive to the country. I hesitated to ask this, but my curiosity has gotten the better of me. **How is the Democratic Party’s platform (not “agenda”; it’s a party platform) “generally destructive to the country”?** Be specific and, as this is Great Debates, feel free to actually bolster your specifics with some kind of substantiation. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/448 "2019-10-18T01:47:12Z")
[Sen. Mitt Romney](https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1184919415554338816): > [@](#): > > “What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a bloodstain in the annals of American history.” [James Hohmann](https://twitter.com/jameshohmann/status/1184992016926679041), _Washington Post_: > [@](#): > > Erdogan had prepared for a confrontational meeting, but the mood softened when it became clear the U.S. officials were asking only for what the Turks regarded as token concessions. In return for a brief pause, there’d be no U.S. sanctions or requirement for a Turkish withdrawal. > > Mike Pence’s request for a temporary cease-fire seemed to be “face-saving, for the U.S. side,” the Turkish official in the Foreign Ministry said. “It was as easy a negotiation as we’ve ever had,” the official said. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/449 "2019-10-18T02:50:01Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I hesitated to ask this, but my curiosity has gotten the better of me. **How is the Democratic Party’s platform (not “agenda”; it’s a party platform) “generally destructive to the country”?** > > Be specific and, as this is Great Debates, feel free to actually bolster your specifics with some kind of substantiation. No. This is a hijack so please drop it. If you’re interested feel free to start a different thread. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/450 "2019-10-18T03:12:55Z")
[Trump at rally](https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1185015773099708416) on Turkey and the Kurds: > [@Donald Trump](#): > > “Sometimes you have to let them fight, like two kids in a lot. You have to let them fight, and then you pull them apart!” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/451 "2019-10-18T04:04:42Z")
[Rukmini Callimachi](https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/1184506941781037058), _New York Times_: > [@](#): > > To grasp the extent of the crimes the Arab militias fighting for Turkey are carrying out in Syria, read the autopsy of the Kurdish politician executed a few days ago. Her legs & jaw were broken, she was dragged by her hair until the skin of her scalp came out & repeatedly shot: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/452 "2019-10-18T08:59:09Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No. This is a hijack so please drop it. If you’re interested feel free to start a different thread. > > [/moderating] No problem. [Done!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21923343) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/453 "2019-10-18T13:14:49Z")
_CNN_: [Kurds say Turkey is violating hours-old ‘ceasefire’ in northern Syria](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/18/middleeast/syria-turkey-ceasefire-violations-intl/index.html) > [@](#): > > Clashes continued on the border between Turkey and Syria on Friday, according to eyewitnesses and Kurdish fighters, despite US Vice President Mike Pence’s announcement that he and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan had brokered a five-day ceasefire there. > > Shelling and artillery fire was reported Friday in the border town of Ras al-Ain, one of the targets of Turkey’s week-old offensive against Kurdish fighters, who have long been backed by the United States. > > The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) told CNN that shelling by the Turkish military and the Syrian rebel proxies supporting them has hit a number of civilian areas in Ras al-Ain, including a hospital. The SDF says five fighters were killed in the attack. _The Guardian_: [UN investigates alleged use of white phosphorus in Syria](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/18/un-investigates-turkey-alleged-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-syria) > [@](#): > > UN chemical weapons inspectors have announced they are gathering information following accusations that burning white phosphorus was used by Turkish forces against children in Syria earlier this week. > … > The Kurdish Red Crescent said in a statement that six patients, both civilian and military, were in hospital in Hasakah with burns from “unknown weapons” and it was working to evaluate what had been used. > … > A British chemical weapons expert sent photographs from a former colleague of a child with a badly burned torso in a frontline hospital said he thought it was likely they showed chemical burns. > > Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, a former commander of the UK’s chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear regiment, said: “The most likely culprit is white phosphorus. It is a horrific weapon, and has been used repeatedly during the Syrian civil war; unfortunately its use has become increasingly normalised.” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/454 "2019-10-18T14:47:27Z")
Erdogan, who [reportedly threw Trump’s letter in the bin](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50080737), [makes clear his displeasure](https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1185182223282167808): > [@](#): > > Letter to him from @POTUS “was not in line with diplomatic and political courtesy. We will not forget this lack of respect. This is not a priority for us. But when the time comes we would like it to be known that we will take the necessary steps,” says @RTErdogan. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/455 "2019-10-18T14:55:03Z")
The ex-Turkish ambassador to the United States is openly mocking Trump on Twitter: > The Turks are using these 120 hours to re-arm and resupply. Come Monday, the true genocide will begin. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/456 "2019-10-18T15:21:42Z")
I do hope Trump is seeing all this in his daily twitter feed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/457 "2019-10-18T15:25:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I do hope Trump is seeing all this in his daily twitter feed. Maybe John Oliver needs to get the Catheter Cowboy to do another spot on Fox so Trump can learn some things about what his actions have caused. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/458 "2019-10-18T15:44:43Z")
Holy hell, we’re now at the point where diplomatic niceties, however forced and false, don’t matter anymore. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/459 "2019-10-18T16:44:49Z")
Trump, in defending Turkey’s actions against the Kurds, uses the phrase “ultimate solution”. “Just spoke to President @RTErdogan of Turkey. He told me there was minor sniper and mortar fire that was quickly eliminated. He very much wants the ceasefire, or pause, to work. Likewise, the Kurds want it, and the ultimate solution, to happen. Too bad there wasn’t…” > Nothing to see here, guys! ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/460 "2019-10-18T16:51:35Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Trump, in defending Turkey’s actions against the Kurds, uses the phrase “ultimate solution”. > > “Just spoke to President @RTErdogan of Turkey. He told me there was minor sniper and mortar fire that was quickly eliminated. He very much wants the ceasefire, or pause, to work. Likewise, the Kurds want it, and the ultimate solution, to happen. Too bad there wasn’t…” > > [https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185219641972539392?s=19](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185219641972539392?s=19) > > Nothing to see here, guys! Yesterday, Trump spoke of the Kurds living along the border, [saying that Turkey “had to have it cleaned out.”](https://twitter.com/SamanthaJPower/status/1184909873307377664) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=24)