# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/61 "2019-10-08T10:42:08Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Republicans have been criticizing Trump’s decision - even Lindsey Graham. > > [Lindsey Graham](https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1181181561045172224): A former opponent of Trump, then a craven supporter (see his almost unhinged comments on the whistleblower scandal) and, days later, a critic again. Mr. Graham, please reconsider your political choices. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/62 "2019-10-08T11:06:55Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Blow up a dam. And then get angry that the water is causing damage. And blame the water. And get angry when someone suggests that staying away will do less harm > Well done. > > :rolleyes: So progressives are “pro-war” for opposing an action that has led to more war and more regional instability, and will likely lead to the slaughter of thousand of our allies and a further erosion of America’s global influence. And it’s all Obama’s fault. Yes, that checks out. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/63 "2019-10-08T12:08:18Z")
Its Obama and Bush II’s fault. And Trumps since he has been in charge. I am pleased that you think that somehow alienating a large and old ally on the Southern flank of NATO will lead to, errrrr “stability”? If the US was really all in on Kurds, then pay the price. Go in and create a Kurdish state and protect it with American blood and treasure. The current approach, which is to give just enough support to create militancy and chaos, but not enough to change the circumstance decisivly, is stupid at best, downright evil at worst. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/64 "2019-10-08T12:45:09Z")
Oh, I get it. You’re just a fan of the fascist Erdogan. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/65 "2019-10-08T13:02:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I am pleased that you think that somehow alienating a large and old ally on the Southern flank of NATO will lead to, errrrr “stability”? That’ll be the “large and old ally” whose economy Trump just threatened to destroy, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/66 "2019-10-08T15:04:38Z")
Even my Trump-loving father is furious. Went on a rant at breakfast, didn’t have a single good thing to say about him. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/67 "2019-10-08T15:14:27Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Even my Trump-loving father is furious. Went on a rant at breakfast, didn’t have a single good thing to say about him. Nope, nope, you must be incorrect. Trump has said that everybody loves his decision. Trump is never wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/68 "2019-10-08T16:15:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That’ll be the “large and old ally” whose economy Trump just threatened to destroy, yes? This is typical Trump. No matter what he does he somehow manages to do it in the worst possible way. In this case, he intervened in a conflict between the Kurds and the Turks in such a way that he made our relationship with both sides worse. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/69 "2019-10-08T16:25:00Z")
The West has been betraying the Kurds for a century. This is just the latest example. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/70 "2019-10-08T16:37:29Z")
While I don’t necessarily disagree that this is something of a betrayal, I also I don’t think there’s a country on earth that has done as much to help the Kurds as the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/71 "2019-10-08T16:48:50Z")
I’m not sure whether it makes it better or worse that we give them our full support in between bouts of brutal betrayal. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/72 "2019-10-08T16:49:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > While I don’t necessarily disagree that this is something of a betrayal, I also I don’t think there’s a country on earth that has done as much to help the Kurds as the USA. “Hey, Pesh, before you get all upset about those 500 pound U.S.-made bombs that are being dropped on you, remember when we gave you all that rice last year? Let’s just keep things in perspective.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/73 "2019-10-08T16:55:10Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m not sure whether it makes it better or worse that we give them our full support in between bouts of brutal betrayal. I’m of the opinion that some support is better than no support at all. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/74 "2019-10-08T17:07:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m of the opinion that some support is better than no support at all. YMMV. In most cases, sure. Giving a starving guy a sandwich is a good thing. But not if you are going to stab him in the back when he’s done eating it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/75 "2019-10-08T18:17:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m of the opinion that some support is better than no support at all. YMMV. Not necessarily. If you encourage somebody to enter into a situation that makes them more vulnerable than their current situation, you may be responsible for their new vulnerability. For example, the Kurds have been oppressed for centuries but the level of oppression rises and falls. We come along and encourage the Kurds to rise up and declare independence and we promise them support if they do this. So they do. And then we pull our support and leave them on their own. The country that they declared independence from is now free to attack the Kurds and reclaim the Kurdish territory that had proclaimed independence. And a large number of Kurds will be killed in the process. The Kurds will end up worse off than they would have been if we had never encouraged them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/76 "2019-10-08T18:22:31Z")
U.S. support for the Kurds is like Lucy helping Charlie Brown learn to kick a ball… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/77 "2019-10-08T18:24:53Z")
In your example, are we still talking about Kurds in northern Syria in the 21st century, or some other group of Kurds in another country during another administration? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/78 "2019-10-08T18:42:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > For example, the Kurds have been oppressed for centuries but the level of oppression rises and falls. We come along and encourage the Kurds to rise up and declare independence and we promise them support if they do this. So they do. WTF are you talking about? Kurdish nationalism is barely a century old. The British supported it to hurt the Turks in WW1 and since then extra-regional actors have always found it a useful tool to put pressure on regional countries. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/79 "2019-10-08T18:44:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In your example, are we still talking about Kurds in northern Syria in the 21st century, or some other group of Kurds in another country during another administration? I’m still failing to see this silver lining you’re trying to find. Kurds get steamrolled by ISIS, and we give billions of dollars of weapons to them to fight back. Turkey gears up to attack them, and we can either (a) stay alongside them, knowing that Turkey isn’t so dumb as to bomb a Peshmerga unit with Green Berets on the ground with them; or (b) pull up stakes so the attack can proceed. You’re acting like we did them a huge favor by letting them be attacked by Turks instead of ISIS. And by the way, the SDF took a hell of a lot of ISIS fighters prisoner. Many thousands, maybe tens of thousands. They aren’t being held in prisons; mostly just camps guarded by these Arabs and Kurds who we instructed to treat detainees humanely. So if Turkey invades, what do you think is going to happen to these detainees? I’m guessing the guards flee for their lives and stop guarding the gates. This is a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/80 "2019-10-08T18:58:05Z")
Trump certainly handled this ineptly. Much like everything else he gets involved with. But, news reports indicate Turkey has been massing troops on the border for months. The US has maybe 1000 soldiers stationed there. I’m not sure what the US could do without getting dragged into a full war with Turkey. We don’t have a supply line or support bases for a war. Our options to help are very limited. A conflict with Turkey could get out of hand very quickly. Especially if Russia took their side. They have a large base in Syria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=5)