# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/81 "2019-10-08T19:36:38Z")
Pardon me for jumping right to the end without reading the thread. I’m in the office today, and I have to do _some_ work! [Trump On Turkey: ‘I Have A Little Conflict Of Interest … It’s Called Trump Towers’](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/conflict-of-interest-donald-trump-syria-kurds-turkey_n_5d9bb7bfe4b0fc935edf5be0) Trump said this in 2015, before he was the president. But he still has a financial interest in Trump Towers Istanbul, right? And he’s just given Turkey what they’ve always wanted, while he holds those financial interests? How is this not a violation of the Emoluments Clause of the United States Constitution? How is it not a criminal violation of federal law (18 U.S. Code § 208.Acts affecting a personal financial interest)? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/82 "2019-10-08T19:38:56Z")
You don’t know what the US could have done to avoid being attacked by a fellow NATO member short of a full war against said fellow NATO member? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/83 "2019-10-08T19:46:02Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > You don’t know what the US could have done to avoid being attacked by a fellow NATO member short of a full war against said fellow NATO member? Seriously? Economic sanctions? We tried that already with many other countries like Iran, N Korea, Russia and it doesn’t do a damn bit of good. The Turks have been at war with the Kurds for several generations. Sanctions won’t put out this fire. Turkey will never accept a Kurdish state on their border. Just like Israel will never accept a Palestinian state. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/84 "2019-10-08T21:04:39Z")
The USA has indeed betrayed the Kurds. Not for the first time they betray them, not for the first time they betray an ally. Europe takes note, I can assure you. We should have taken note when the USA betrayed the Shia Muslims in Irak (also more than once) - and you know how divided we were during the Second Irak War. Maybe it is time for the USA to do the right thing an betray Saudi Arabia. Fat chance. As [Western European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal) I must admit that betraying allies is a time honored tradition. Doing it in such a foolish way is worse than _[Chamberlainesque](https://schumanchu.eu/html/l/l_00003golfosumbrella.html)_. But what do you expect from Trump, he said, preaching to the converted. History is a sad affair… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/85 "2019-10-09T00:10:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Kurdish nationalism is barely a century old. No, the Kurds have been an identifiable ethnic group since at least medieval times. (Kurds themselves identify with earlier ethnic groups but these claims are arguable.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/86 "2019-10-09T00:13:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > But, news reports indicate Turkey has been massing troops on the border for months. The US has maybe 1000 soldiers stationed there. I’m not sure what the US could do without getting dragged into a full war with Turkey. We don’t have a supply line or support bases for a war. Our options to help are very limited. Pretty sure if it had approached the point of fighting an actual war with the United States, Turkey would have stepped back. Erdogan’s not insane. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/87 "2019-10-09T01:05:17Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Anyone feel better after Trump’s latest [Tweets](https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1181232249821388801?s=21)? > > > [@](#): > > > > As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over… > > > > …the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT! > > I guess his “_great and unmatched wisdom_” makes it all better now :dubious: I dont’ feel better, but I do find myself wondering when he had a casino in Istanbul. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/88 "2019-10-09T01:29:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, the Kurds have been an identifiable ethnic group since at least medieval times. (Kurds themselves identify with earlier ethnic groups but these claims are arguable.) Ethnic consciousness is not identical with [nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_nationalism). Arab and Kurdish nationalism have similarly young roots - basically late 19th century. The rise of _Turkish_ nationalism as a semi-coherent philosophy/policy in the late Ottoman state actually served to stimulate Arab, Kurdish and other nationalist movements in response. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/89 "2019-10-09T01:40:33Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Ethnic consciousness is not identical with [nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_nationalism). Arab and Kurdish nationalism have similarly young roots - basically late 19th century. The rise of _Turkish_ nationalism as a semi-coherent philosophy/policy in the late Ottoman state actually served to stimulate Arab, Kurdish and other nationalist movements in response. Tell it to AK84. He was the one who brought up nationalism. I said “the Kurds have been oppressed for centuries but the level of oppression rises and falls.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/90 "2019-10-09T02:40:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > But, news reports indicate Turkey has been massing troops on the border for months. The US has maybe 1000 soldiers stationed there. I’m not sure what the US could do without getting dragged into a full war with Turkey. We don’t have a supply line or support bases for a war. Our options to help are very limited. Yes, if only the US had a strong naval force in the Med, with aircraft carriers and cruise missiles, one that could go right up the Dardanelles and suggest to Turkey that harming Kurds would be a bad idea. If only. Oh, [wait a minute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Sixth_Fleet) … ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/91 "2019-10-09T02:55:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Tell it to AK84. He was the one who brought up nationalism. I said “the Kurds have been oppressed for centuries but the level of oppression rises and falls.” They haven’t been oppressed for centuries any more than Arabs have been, that’s the point. For most of these centuries the entire place was ruled by the Turks. For most of that time linguistic and ethnic identities were not the main markers of differences, it was religious and sectarian persuasion. The emphasis on ethnic identities arose with the rise of nationalism. Claims of “oppression” on ethnic origin are anarchonistic. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/92 "2019-10-09T02:59:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Yes, if only the US had a strong naval force in the Med, with aircraft carriers and cruise missiles, one that could go right up the Dardanelles and suggest to Turkey that harming Kurds would be a bad idea. > > If only. > Oh, [wait a minute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Sixth_Fleet) … Well I mean, few things would delight the Russians and Chinese more than the sight of the US using Force against its own allies to help ethnic separatists in that ally. It would be played on loop by their foreign ministries. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/93 "2019-10-09T03:03:07Z")
Sure. But the idea that the US is just powerless to influence matters in the area is what I was responding to. The US has poured tremendous amounts of money and resources into the Med for the express purpose of being able to influence events there. Whether they use that power for good or ill is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/94 "2019-10-09T03:28:30Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > They haven’t been oppressed for centuries any more than Arabs have been, that’s the point. For most of these centuries the entire place was ruled by the Turks. For most of that time linguistic and ethnic identities were not the main markers of differences, it was religious and sectarian persuasion. > > The emphasis on ethnic identities arose with the rise of nationalism. Claims of “oppression” on ethnic origin are anarchonistic. Are you saying that ethnic oppression is something that has only existed for a couple hundred years? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/95 "2019-10-09T03:45:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you saying that ethnic oppression is something that has only existed for a couple hundred years? As it is understood and inflicted today, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Lebodnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@Mr.Lebodnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Lebodnik)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/96 "2019-10-09T04:41:53Z")
It IS a betrayal of the Kurds, however I suppose it had to happen sometime (the U.S. leaving). If it can be done, I think the Kurds in Syria should try to reach some sort of an agreement with the Syrian government. Perhaps some sort of semi-autonomous region. I wonder if Turkey would be willing to fight Syria, the Kurds, and Syria’s Russian allies. Overall though, it was and is extremely unwise to get too involved in Middle Eastern affairs, on anyones side. The whole region always was and likely always will be an absolute mess. Conflict there is forever. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/97 "2019-10-09T09:42:41Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Russia - a win for their client state, Syria > Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border > Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds > Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters > > United States - world humiliation and distrust Accurate, except for that last bit. United States - business as per usual. sadly. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/98 "2019-10-09T10:38:12Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > Accurate, except for that last bit. > > United States - business as per usual. sadly. I think that Trump’s appalling behaviour makes this situation much worse than usual. Public statements about how incredibly wonderful he is 😕 and threats to destroy an allies’ economy :smack: must make everyone shudder. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/99 "2019-10-09T13:37:53Z")
Just got a notification that Turkey has invaded Syria. Links soon… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/100 "2019-10-09T13:54:30Z")
AP announcement: > “BREAKING: Turkish President Erdogan announces in tweet that Turkish offensive into northeast Syria has started.” Erdogan’s tweet: > “The Turkish Armed Forces, together with the Syrian National Army, just launched #OperationPeaceSpring against PKK/YPG and Daesh terrorists in northern Syria. Our mission is to prevent the creation of a terror corridor across our southern border, and to bring peace to the area.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=6)