# We Have Betrayed the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420 "2019-10-07T14:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/121 "2019-10-10T00:16:16Z")
Fox News Reporter Jennifer Griffin: > > [@](#): > > "I just spoke to a distraught US Special Forces soldier who is among the 1000 or so US troops in Syria tonight who is serving alongside the SDF Kurdish forces. It was one of the hardest phone calls I have ever taken. > > “I am ashamed for the first time in my career.” > > This veteran US Special forces soldier has trained indigenous forces on multiple continents. He is on the frontlines tonight and said they are witnessing Turkish atrocities. > > “Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It’s horrible,” this military source on the ground told me. > > “We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement. There was NO threat to the Turks - NONE - from this side of the border.” “This is insanity,” the concerned US service member told me. "“I don’t know what they call atrocities but they are happening.” > > This American soldier told me the Kurds have not left their positions guarding the ISIS prisoners. In fact “they prevented a prison break last night without us.” > “They are not abandoning our side (yet).” > The Kurds are “pleading for our support.” We are doing “nothing.” > > Troops on the ground in Syria and their commanders were “surprised” by the decision Sunday night. > Of the President’s decision: “He doesn’t understand the problem. He doesn’t understand the repercussions of this. Erdogan is an Islamist, not a level headed actor.” > > Acc to this US soldier on the ground tonight in Syria: "The Kurds are as close to Western thinking in the Middle East as anyone. “It’s a shame. It’s horrible.” “This is not helping the ISIS fight.” Re: ISIS prisoners: “Many of them will be free in the coming days and weeks.” > > This US Special Forces soldier wanted me to know: “The Kurds are sticking by us. No other partner I have ever dealt with would stand by us.” > > Disappointed in the decisions coming from their senior leaders. This soldier sounds more than disappointed. He seems distraught. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/122 "2019-10-10T00:37:56Z")
Deep state! Fake news! Soldier with integrity! Unfair! ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/123 "2019-10-10T00:52:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Deep state! Fake news! Soldier with integrity! Unfair! MAGA! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/124 "2019-10-10T00:55:20Z")
Mike Flynn must be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/125 "2019-10-10T01:24:31Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Turkey to be hit with sanctions. > > [Sen. Chris Van Hollen](https://twitter.com/ChrisVanHollen/status/1182034387145302016): Sure, we’ll successfully sanction a country where we have at least 5000 US airmen and store tactical nukes. :smack: ETA: I’m sure Mike Flynn’s thrilled! Now if only Turkey’d get rid of all those Muslims, he’d be in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/126 "2019-10-10T02:57:25Z")
The US betraying allies isn’t news; what’s news is that the American government is betraying Americans. It’s only fitting that we betray the Kurds. It wouldn’t be right to betray ourselves and not betray a foreign ally. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/127 "2019-10-10T03:07:12Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Fox News Reporter Jennifer Griffin: > > [https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1182053870744276993?s=19](https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1182053870744276993?s=19) > > This soldier sounds more than disappointed. He seems distraught. I have no sympathy for the soldiers who just blindly shout “Hoo rah” for any jackass republican who wraps himself in the flag and screams bloody murder the moment a democrat with an IQ over room temperature enters the Oval Office. I’m done with troop worship. Done with 9/11 flag waving. Done with yellow stickers. Done with all that shit. We’re not defending country. We’re just engaging in global jackassery. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/128 "2019-10-10T03:18:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I’m crystal clear on who is starting the war. We’re simply not going to intervene on the other (Kurd) side, by bombing Turks or shooting down Turkish jets. That’s not remotely realistic. Gee. Maybe your boy should not have started this whole shit show with his tweet the other day then. This debacle is 100% on Trump. He owns it. Including all the ISIS fighters who will now be free to go back to whatever it is they like to do. Oh, they’ll just go to Europe and blow stuff up there… so tough titty for them foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/129 "2019-10-10T03:22:12Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Turkey to be hit with sanctions. > > [Sen. Chris Van Hollen](https://twitter.com/ChrisVanHollen/status/1182034387145302016): So Trump destroys the US relationship with the Kurds, who helped fight ISIS. Then the US destroys the US relationship with Turkey, because Trump told them to go ahead and attack the Kurds. Makes sense. Fuck everything up. “Look everyone! Over there! The world is fucked up!!! Stop thinking about my impeachment!” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/130 "2019-10-10T03:22:40Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Gee. Maybe your boy should not have started this whole shit show with his tweet the other day then. > > This debacle is 100% on Trump. He owns it. Including all the ISIS fighters who will now be free to go back to whatever it is they like to do. > > Oh, they’ll just go to Europe and blow stuff up there… so tough titty for them foreigners. It’s not 100% on Trump; it’s on Bush, and even more importantly, it’s on Lindsay “I’m gay as hell but don’t want to admit it” Graham. I blame Graham more than anyone. He’s the chickenshit who voted for war in the Middle East, claimed to be a never Trumper, but then became the biggest gobbler of Trump’s junk of any member of congress. Total coward. Been there all along as the US has wrecked an entire region. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/131 "2019-10-10T03:24:33Z")
Oh, and as an added bonus, Trump shits on NATO again today. Good job Trump. Is there anyone you have not pissed off lately? \ Putin seems awfully happy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/132 "2019-10-10T03:26:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s not 100% on Trump; it’s on Bush, and even more importantly, it’s on Lindsay “I’m gay as hell but don’t want to admit it” Graham. I blame Graham more than anyone. He’s the chickenshit who voted for war in the Middle East, claimed to be a never Trumper, but then became the biggest gobbler of Trump’s junk of any member of congress. Total coward. Been there all along as the US has wrecked an entire region. Moscow Mitch and Graham are the wormtounges to Trump’s Saruman. (Well, if Saruman was a complete fecking moron) ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/133 "2019-10-10T03:58:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Oh, and as an added bonus, Trump shits on NATO again today. Good job Trump. Is there anyone you have not pissed off lately? > > \ > > Putin seems awfully happy. Could it be…SATAN![/church lady] ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/134 "2019-10-10T04:13:42Z")
Have the Kurds ever had an US president who was truly supportive of them? Trump is an unusually bad POTUS for them, but I don’t recall Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. ever been favorable to them (although GWB’s invasion of Iraq and deposing of Saddam probably did them a big indirect favor). I don’t get the sense that any of the (D) candidates for next year care about them either. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/135 "2019-10-10T04:55:29Z")
I just don’t understand why Erdogan abandoned the Security Zone process. Everything I’ve read indicates it was working and US forces & Kurds were complying with the terms. I predict now this betrayal more than anything else will cost Trump the election. Americans will be shocked at the outcome of slaughter and upheaval in Syria. ☹ > **[Turkey's Syria invasion: Member of US Special Forces says, 'I am ashamed for...](https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-invasion-special-forces-soldier-kurds.amp?__twitter_impression=true)** > > A U.S. Special Forces soldier serving alongside the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in Syria told Fox News' Jennifer Griffin on Wednesday they were witnessing Turkish atrocities on the frontlines.  > [@](#): > > A member of U.S. Special Forces serving alongside the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in Syria told Fox News on Wednesday they were witnessing Turkish atrocities on the frontlines. > > “I am ashamed for the first time in my career,” said the distraught soldier, who has been involved in the training of indigenous forces on multiple continents. The hardened service member is among the 1,000 or so U.S. troops who remain in Syria. > > “Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It’s horrible,” the military source on the ground said. “We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement [with the Turks]. There was no threat to the Turks – none – from this side of the border." Lindsey Graham @LindseyGrahamSC I have tried to work with Turkey to satisfy their legitimate national security concerns. I find the threat to invade into Syria – made by President Erdogan – to be disrespectful of those efforts and a major escalation of tensions between the US and Turkey ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/136 "2019-10-10T05:07:54Z")
This whole time Erdogan was building up forces to invade. Turkey never intended to let the Security Zone process work. > **[Northern Syria Buffer Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Syria_Buffer_Zone)** > > The Northern Syria Buffer Zone (also known as the Safe Zone, Peace Corridor, or Security Mechanism) was a temporary Syrian Civil War demilitarized zone (DMZ) established on the Syrian side of the Syria–Turkey border in August 2019 to maintain security along the border and to dissuade a prospective Turkish invasion of the self-proclaimed Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria. The DMZ was administered by the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) and their military councils and e > [@](#): > > The DMZ was managed by United States Armed Forces and Turkish Armed Forces personnel until the agreement was abandoned and in early October 2019 after U.S. President Donald Trump gave his approval of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s planned ground incursion into northern Syria, reportedly after the latter promised to take responsibility for ISIL captives in Syrian Democratic Forces-run prisons. The subsequent Turkish ground offensive rendered the buffer zone obsolete before it was ever fully implemented. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/137 "2019-10-10T06:36:22Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > I find myself of 2 minds on this one. > > 1. Yes, we have betrayed the Kurds. He also said the Kurds,have been paid “massive amounts of money and equipment” by the U.S. That is a truly despicable statement. > > 2. Trump said, “It is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home.” Arguably, he is not wrong about this. > > It seems to me that once again Trump is doing something that is at least arguably good in the worst possible way and for the worst possible reasons. And in a way that is guaranteed to cause the most amount of harm to others. The second one sounds like a nice sentiment, but in this case it’s actually bullshit. As the [LA Times editorial](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-09/trumps-syria-policy-shows-the-president-at-his-worst) points out: > [@](#): > > Even if you sympathize — as this page does — with the desire to keep the U.S. out of quagmires, unwinnable conflicts and “endless wars” that don’t affect vital American interests, the stabilizing role played by U.S. forces in Syria is not an example of intolerable overreach. It’s a markedly more modest and less dangerous commitment than the continued U.S. military mission in Afghanistan and it serves two purposes: protecting the Syrian Kurds from Turkey (which sees them as terrorists aligned with Kurdish insurgents from Turkey) and preventing the resurgence of Islamic State. > > There is a danger that U.S. troops might stay too long in Syria and become hostages to regional politics. But decisions on whether and when to withdraw those forces should be made by the president after respectful consultation with experts and allies, the sort of deliberative process Trump disdains. This episode is a reminder that, whether or not Congress concludes that Trump committed “high crimes and misdemeanors” deserving of impeachment, he is operatically incompetent in discharging the duties of the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/138 "2019-10-10T06:42:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Democratic Sen. Chris Van Hollen of Maryland on Wednesday announced a framework to place immediate sanctions on senior Turkish government officials, ban all US military business and military transactions with Turkey, and immediately activate 2017 sanctions on the country until Ankara stops its operations against the Kurds. Hey here’s an idea Senator Graham: How about if you work to remove the FUCKING MADMAN who started this whole shit-show off with his insane tweet that gave the go-ahead for the slaughter? It’s not hard - simply work with the Democrats to release EVIDENCE for Trump’s impeachment investigation? You don’t even have to do anything difficult. You just have to do WHAT IS LEGAL AND MORAL. Think you can manage that, you pustule? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/139 "2019-10-10T06:48:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Economic sanctions? We tried that already with many other countries like Iran, N Korea, Russia and it doesn’t do a damn bit of good. Right. That’s why Putin wants nothing more than to have sanctions removed. Because they don’t do a damn bit of good. Hell, it was even [in the Mueller Report](https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller-report-sheds-light-on-russias-concerns-over-u-s-sanctions-11555717351): > [@](#): > > Russian President Vladimir Putin urged a Russian banking executive with ties to one of the country’s largest commercial banks to establish a line of communication with the incoming Trump administration following the 2016 U.S. presidential election, according to special counsel Robert Mueller’s report on Russian interference in the election. > > Mr. Putin’s chief concern, according to the report: U.S. sanctions. Because sanctions don’t work, right? Here is evidence [in handy chart form](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48119109) how they have worked in Iran, for example. There’s a lot of evidence sanctions work, especially when allies share in the sanctions, and certainly that they are less detrimental than war or other actions taken against international bad actors. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420/140 "2019-10-10T07:00:03Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I predict now this betrayal more than anything else will cost Trump the election. Americans will be shocked at the outcome of slaughter and upheaval in Syria. Right. The same Americans who don’t know where Syria is on a map. Here’s the talking point (and it’s already been uttered in this very thread): “I’m just looking to get our servicemen home, we’re tired of inserting ourselves into the affairs of other countries.” It’s bullshit, but so is nearly every White House talking point. Republicans in congress will start saying their lines, the Right Wing Media will amplify them, and in this case you’ll even see staunchly anti-war so-called “progressives” thrilled (they are of course not smart enough to understand the complexities of the issues, or see how Trump’s actions are actually making for _more_ death and instability and when Isis makes a comeback, then we’ll declare war on them yet again or whatever terrorist group our dumb actions help birth this time). Now, it could be something which finally erodes the support from Republicans in congress. There is evidence of this. But the average voter? I don’t see it. We have too many people on both sides of the spectrum who are ignorant or oblivious to international policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-betrayed-the-kurds/841420.md?page=8)