To be honest, I’d be much more inclined to trust the judgement of Congress members, many of whom serve on Foreign Affairs and Intelligence committees, on the subject of Middle-Eastern affairs than a bunch of MAGA-hatted farmers who probably couldn’t even pinpoint the Middle East on a world map.
Here’s a more detailed breakdown of the results:
So 129 Republican Congress members voted against Trump’s decision, and 60 supported it.
As for your specific example of invading Canada, the President could almost certainly mass troops on the border. If he wanted to actually invade, absent Congressional support, he’d need “a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” Presumably the Canadians wouldn’t be stupid enough to give him such cover (but then, presumably neither were the Libyans, and it didn’t do them a damn bit of good). He’d have to notify Congress within 48 hours, and in theory has only 60 days to complete the operation (I’d be disappointed if the US military couldn’t take control of all major Canadian cities within 60 days, given adequate planning and build-up)
Some possible avenues of Congressional response to such an act would be: prohibiting the use of any funds for military operations in Canada, censure, impeachment, removal from office, etc.
Trump has certainly managed to shift the focus from his Ukraine fuckup. Now he’s got a fuckup in a whole 'nother area, and perhaps can be impeached for incompetence for something unrelated to Ukraine! It’s a win/win for America.
Questions or comments about moderation belong in ATMB. No more in this thread.
[/moderating]
Trish Regan, FOXBusiness:
Letter’s dated 9th October, so three days after Trump greenlit the Turkish invasion.
Unless someone’s hijacked Trish Regan’s account, I presume it’s legit.
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. That letter is so insanely juvenile.
The House Committee on International Relations approved the Iraq war resolution 31-11. I could probably look up various other foreign interventions that ended badly after Congressional endorsement. I don’t feel particularly inclined to “trust the judgement of Congress members”. Anyways, I appreciate your posting the vote totals.
I don’t think the Iraq War is a good comparison. With regard to Iraq, Congress was voting based on intelligence assessments about whether Iraq was developing hidden weapons of mass destruction. These intelligence assessments turned out to be inaccurate.
In this Turkey/Kurdish case, they don’t need assessments by intelligence agencies to evaluate what’s going on - the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see.
As it happened, we also had an ill-informed President at that time that Republican partisans lined up to support regardless of the facts.
Not the best example for you to use. But I guess when people are forced to defend MAGA nonsense, they go with whatever is at hand.
Certainly there are some appreciable differences between the Kurdish situation and the Iraq war. That being said, I’m skeptical that “the facts about what’s happening are right out in the open for everyone to see”. Personally I think there’s precious little good information about the military actions taking place in northern / eastern Syria. Do we even know, for example, how many Turkish troops have crossed the border into Syria? Is it a company or several brigades? Where has there been fighting? How many casualties have there been? Are there any documented massacres of civilians? If so, how many were killed?
I know we’re getting some scattered reports, but those don’t really provide an accurate gauge of “what’s going on” IMHO.
Looks like Trump may have leaked the Erdogan letter himself.
Jill Colvin, AP:
Soner Cagaptay, Turkey expert:
The letter was delivered last week, meaning that the answer has always been “Naw, we’re good.”
The more Donald Trump shows how his Presidency works… from sharpies to transcripts to letters… the worse it gets.
The important fact is that by withdrawing 50 troops who were in no danger, a war was started. The Trump Surrender resulted in unnecessary deaths. How many death are acceptable to the MAGA crowd is really the only question.
Certainly the Fox News website has been hardly covering the recent events in Syria (and I’ve been checking every day to compare their coverage with other news outlets in the U.S. and around the world).
Here’s the Wikipedia page on the Turkish offensive, with more in-depth detail, including reported casualty numbers - including civilians - and a daily map of Turkish control.
They were also voting in the wake of 9/11 still being on everyone’s minds. I think that some decisions were made in haste and without a fully rational accounting of the possible effects.
Yeah, it’s hard to tell exactly what is going on. We don’t have many people in the area, and it’s not a really safe place for press either. These scattered reports come to us at great risk from those who are willing to endure great hardship and danger to inform us of what is going on.
To ask them for more is not reasonable, and it is even less reasonable to discount their reporting because some news agency used the wrong video clip along with it.
You know who does have all the info that you want? Trump and his administration. They could tell you exactly how many Turks have crossed the border, how many casualties there have been, verify the massacres of civilians. He does have that information from his intelligence agencies. Ask him to share that info with the American public, if this is something you need to know before you decide whether or not it was a good idea to turn our backs on the Kurds.
The bottom of that letter should read:
Dictated, not read, no brain cells used.
I don’t think “who were in no danger” is remotely accurate. We’ve had Americans killed in Syria in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. It’s literally a war zone for fuck’s sake.
Is a trickle of dead Americans worth keeping the Kurds, Turks, and Syrians at relative peace? I don’t know. I’d probably have been inclined to leave the status quo ante in place if I were in charge, but I can’t really find fault with someone for saying, essentially, “no, it’s not our responsibility.”
One question. Do you think that it is our responsibility that the Kurds have few defenses against a Turkish invasion, specifically because we convinced them to get rid of them?
Have you forgotten why the United States was in Syria in the first place? To fight ISIL/ISIS.
While Trump says he has “defeated 100% of the ISIS Caliphate”, the U.S. military, as well as security analysts and many prominent Republican Congress members, say that ISIS is not yet defeated and will resurge with U.S. withdrawal.
Whose opinion do you trust on the current condition of ISIS - Trump, or U.S. military/security analysts/Congress?