# We love you. You have your Nobel Prize. Now, please shut up! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630 "2002-12-09T22:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/41 "2002-12-10T01:09:17Z")
> [@](#): > > The mythology of the Presidency was such that the office was treated as a single, almost sacred entity. Speaking as someone who was born at the height of the Watergate scandal and then had to suffer through the ensuing variety of villains and incompetants who have sat in the office since then, this is one of the single stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard. Respect for the office of the presidency? For the love of God, WHY? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/42 "2002-12-10T01:13:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Robb \* > \*\*Somehow President Bush will be diminished because a man with a Nobel Peace Prize [“for his decades of untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development”](http://www.nobel.se/peace/laureates/2002/index.html) speaks in favor of a peaceful solution? \*\* Saddam miscalculated US action when he invaded Kuwait. Unfortunate words from a former President may encourage another miscalculation. So Carter’s words could contribute to starting a war. Here’s why: The best scenario in Iraq would be for Saddam to genuinely disarm his own WMDs. That appears very unlikely to me. If it’s possible at all, the only way it could happen would be if Saddam felt totally threatened. Then he might conceivably change his long-term pattern. OTOH if Saddam thinks he can fool the UN inspectors again, and that the UN may prevent an attack, then he has less incentive to sincerely comply with the UN resolutions. So, it’s conceivable that Carter’s words could directly or indirectly take some pressure off Saddam and help convince him not to disarm. **wring** , I would say **Enderw24** is right about my POV. Obviously Carter has the legal right to say anything pleases. I’m talking about his violating a tradition that I believe has served the nation well. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/43 "2002-12-10T01:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*The right to pay for postage. \*\* Did you miss a **not** in there? ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/44 "2002-12-10T01:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > So, it’s conceivable that Carter’s words could directly or indirectly take some pressure off Saddam and help convince him not to disarm. If Carter’s words have no impact on the course of action that Bush takes (and really. do we expect Bush to be listening?), why would any one expect that Carter’s words impact Saddam? I’d bet that Saddam takes more comfort from Bush’s difficulties in persuading his allies that this is the correct course of action. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/45 "2002-12-10T01:23:54Z")
well, the call is still there for you to substantiate that it **is** a ‘time honored tradition’, other than Trent’s say so. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/46 "2002-12-10T01:27:18Z")
The thing that I find most laughable is that while Carter strongly criticizes **both** Clinton and Bush, everyone seems to forget that he was one of the worst, most inept, most useless presidents in the past century. I really can’t imagine anyone taking him too seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/47 "2002-12-10T01:28:40Z")
But **Ender** , you’re yelling at us about yelling at **december** about yelling at Jimmy Carter. Where will it stop? I think somebody should think of the children. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/48 "2002-12-10T01:38:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*well, the call is still there for you to substantiate that it **is** a ‘time honored tradition’, other than Trent’s say so. \*\* Here’s another [cite](http://www.michigansocialist.net/mcreynolds/texts/2000/2001_03-05_pn.html) > [@](#): > > an area which for fifty years the two major parties have kept off limits with the slogan politics stops at the waters edge Here’s [another](http://www.laborstandard.org/New_Postings/Lessons_of_Florida_2.htm) > [@](#): > > That was most evident in the common foreign policy of containment, expressed in the phrase that “politics stops at the waters edge Whether it’s a coincidence or not, both these cites are leftists who acknowledge the practice, but who don’t want it to continue. Here’s a [3rd cite](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/choice/bob/baker.html) > [@](#): > > But I think that Bob Dole really does come out of that generation that believes that politics stops at the waters edge. That the President is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces and in that capacity deserves a certain amount of deference. However, I must admit that this phrase isn’t quite what I was looking for. It has applied to the entire minority party, not just the President. I’m really referencing a practice speicfically applying to ex-Presidents. Maybe **Duck Duck Goose** , the Wise Wizard of Web-Searches, the Glorious Genius of Googling, can find better references. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/49 "2002-12-10T01:40:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Enderw24, who said December didn’t have the right to speak out? \*\* Nobody specifically said so. But the first three people in this thread tried to quiet **december** by arguing that Carter has a right to say what he wishes. “Gosh, what does he think this is, a democracy?” leaps to mind. Well, yeah, Carter has the right to say what he wants. That doesn’t address the fact that december too has that right. And you all have that right to disagree with December. Round and round we go… The point is that we should be attacking the argument itself. December, I disagree with your belief that ex-Presidents need to remain silent. Where is the tradition? Should we start back at George Washington who died, what, a month after leaving office? There’s probably not a lot he could have said about the Adams’ presidency, huh? William Taft went on to the Supreme Court. I’ll bet he had a few things to say about Presidential policies there. Show me this tradition we’re talking about running over the course of 200 years? One can argue that it would be prudent for an ex-president to keep quiet on certain issues. But this isn’t any ol’ ex-president we’re talking about here. Carter isn’t Monday morning quarterbacking here. He’s talking about foreign policy which is what he’s doing right now! It affords him the right to speak on an issue that directly affects projects he’s currently working on. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/50 "2002-12-10T01:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhiloVance \* > \*\*Did you miss a **not** in there? \*\* No because I was making a joke that they _lost_ the right to pay for postage (see the post above mine). Of course, they can pay for postage still if they want I suppose, it was just a lame joke. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/51 "2002-12-10T01:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > **But the first three people in this thread tried to quiet december by arguing that Carter has a right to say what he wishes. “Gosh, what does he think this is, a democracy?” leaps to mind.** Those were disgareements; I fail to see how those were attempts to “quiet” him. Do you consider every disagreement as an attempt to “quiet” the person being disagreed with? ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/52 "2002-12-10T01:51:43Z")
FTR, I think Jimmy Carter rules. It is true that in the past former presidents have kept quiet about most things out of respect for the new administration, and it’s something I can understand. The presidency does have a different kind of stature in people’s minds, and the case could be made that it’s inappropriate (although perfectly legal) for a private citizen to use his influence as a former president to make trouble for the new administration (and I don’t think that Carter is necessarily doing this). And in other countries, where they may have a different concept of leadership, the people may not understand that a former president has no legal authority under our Constitution, and cannot speak for the U.S. in any official capacity. However, that’s kind of our fault too. If the founding fathers wanted former presidents to keep their mouths shut, they would have put something about it in the Constitution. Then it would be illegal for Carter to publically state his opinion about anything. Likewise, if the American people didn’t want to give the presidency this mythical status, we shouldn’t have kissed so much presidential ass over the centuries, with the honorifics and the ceremony and the “Hail to the Chief”. In that case, Carter could say anything he wanted without anyone worrying that he’s using his mythical personality to “extend his term” so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/53 "2002-12-10T01:57:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*First, Jimmy wasn’t not never a peanut farmer. He operated a peanut wholesaling business. > > \*\* Huh? The [Jimmy Carter Library](http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/documents/jec/jecbio_p.phtml) says he operated both a farm and a seed and farm supply company. Any cite for the wholesaling? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/54 "2002-12-10T01:57:28Z")
so it’s a recent ‘tradition’? and as far as your claim that it’s supposed to be part of the opposing parties’ protocol, don’t I recall quite a bit of “we shouldn’t have been theres” from Bush when he was campaigning (for example)? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/55 "2002-12-10T02:02:45Z")
Assuming that the American people do not elect morons to the presidency, one would think that the knowledge and wisdom of a past-president, particularly in the role of a critic, would be something of great value rather than something to be swept away in a dustbin. ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/56 "2002-12-10T02:09:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > **Assuming that the American people do not elect morons to the presidency,** Kind of a large assumption to make, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/57 "2002-12-10T02:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Jimmy Carter is still [giving foreign policy advice](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/09/norway.carter/) – in some cases, publicly disagreeing with the current President’s stated policy. Particularly given Mr. Carter’s disastrous foreign policy record, why can’t he just smile silently? Because, of all the people in this sorry, sorry world Jimmy Carter is the ONLY living person to have brokered ANY lasting peace treaty in the Middle East. Or perhaps you are too young to remember? Egypt and Isreal were at war at one time. Mr. Carter negotiated a peace treaty and mutual recongition between the two – and, despite various pressures over the years, it has _lasted_ almost 3 decades now. Granted, it resulted in the death of Anwar Sadat, but still… The point being that Mr. Carter, whatever his other failings, DID have some success in the Middle East. And we desparately need something to reduce the risk on that powder keg. Or maybe you think there hasn’t been enough blood spilled? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/58 "2002-12-10T02:17:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\*Assuming that the American people do not elect morons to the presidency, . \*\* (prolly some one else has already done this, but…) CIte?? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/59 "2002-12-10T02:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Speaking as someone who was born at the height of the Watergate scandal and then had to suffer through the ensuing variety of villains and incompetants who have sat in the office since then, this is one of the single stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard. Respect for the office of the presidency? For the love of God, WHY? \*\* This answer shows the change in the way the presidency was perceived. The Baby Boomers gained an image of the presidency as a bed of corruption, based mostly on the Watergate scandal, and passed that on to their kids (my generation.) So people for the last 30 years have held a negative image of the office of the presidency based almost entirely on that incident. All the supposed scandals of the subsequent administrations, from Reagan to Clinton, have turned out to be basically groundless. And yet that image of Tricky Dick keeps looming unnaturally large in some people’s minds. And that’s why ideas like respect for the office of the presidency have been eroded. It was most certainly not that way for most of our nation’s history. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/60 "2002-12-10T02:25:13Z")
I’m curious about this idea that “the office of President” is in some way - in and of itself - sacred or deserving of respect. Our Prime Minister is effectively the CEO of Australia - if he performs his job well, he earns our respect; if he doesn’t, then (unlike in the US) he’s likely to be replaced long before the next election. The office of CEO of a country deserves no more respect than the office of CEO of Microsoft; respect should be reserved for those encumbents who - by their performance - earn it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630.md?page=4)