# We love you. You have your Nobel Prize. Now, please shut up! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630 "2002-12-09T22:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/101 "2002-12-10T15:27:54Z")
Sorry, that should be “could be argued,” not good be argued. Also, you have to love a guy who shows up to get his Nobel Prize with Willie Nelson! ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/102 "2002-12-10T16:10:24Z")
Did anyone expect Carter to advocate War after recieving the Nobel PEACE Prize? As stated many times on the past three pages, Carter has continued to be involved with foreign issues as well as domestic since leaving the White House over twenty years ago. Wether you agree with what he has done is beside the point. Carter could have taken the easy way out and slipped into oblivion instead of continuing to act on his beliefs. Given the fact he has decided to act on his beliefs, I feel Carter should not have to worry about the “Former President’s Protocol” (not that he is worried) because he is still actively involved in trying to resolve world issues. If he was not involved then perhaps his comments could have been seen as an attack on the current administation instead of a stance on his well documented beliefs and actions. Had Carter simply said “No comment” would anyone think he thought we should attack Iraq regardless of what the UN says? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/103 "2002-12-10T16:16:03Z")
**December** , I’ve reread this morning, and I’m no more enlightened than last night. My folluwup got lost in the noise, so I’ll repost. You said: > [@](#): > > Carter publicly said that the US should follow the UN’s decision on going to war, regardless of whether it’s right or wrong When did Carter say this? And what, precisely, did he say? 'Cos I sure don’t see anything like that quoted in the CNN article. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/104 "2002-12-10T16:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \*When did Carter say this? And what, precisely, did he say? 'Cos I sure don’t see anything like that quoted in the CNN article. From the CNN article: > [@](#): > > Carter told a news conference on Monday: “If there is (Iraqi) compliance, as judged by the U.N. Security Council, then I see no reason for armed conflict.” OTOH it’s Bush’s stated position that the US reserves the right to go to war with Iraq regardless of the judgment made by the UNSC. IMHO Bush’s position rightly pressures the UN to fairly evaluate all the evidence of Iraqi WMDs. I think there are UNSC members who are apt to use the slightest possible ambiguity or uncertainty to judge any Iraqi non-compliance inadequate reason to go to war. I am thinking of countries like France, who, I believe, would rather let Saddam develop nukes than have a war. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/105 "2002-12-10T16:46:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*From the CNN article: OTOH it’s Bush’s stated position that the US reserves the right to go to war with Iraq regardless of the judgment made by the UNSC. > > IMHO Bush’s position rightly pressures the UN to fairly evaluate all the evidence of Iraqi WMDs. I think there are UNSC members who are apt to use the slightest possible ambiguity or uncertainty to judge any Iraqi non-compliance inadequate reason to go to war. I am thinking of countries like France, who, I believe, would rather let Saddam develop nukes than have a war. \*\* If the U.N. finds no evidence of WMD in Iraq, then if and when Bush manages to unearth contrary evidence, he might be able to cobble together some kind of justification for war. I think the above scenario is highly unlikely, though. But why should Carter be barred, formally or informally, from giving his opinion on the matter, especially given that he is one of the better situated people in the world to understand all factors in operation? I think we need all the informed opinions we can get in this circumstance. And if you think the U.N. is turning a blind eye to violations of S.C. resolutions, then that’s a matter to take up with the U.N., not something to be resolved by a war (one which will create at least as many probelms as it has any chance of resolving, IMO). ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/106 "2002-12-10T16:57:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \*But why should Carter be barred, formally or informally, from giving his opinion on the matter, especially given that he is one of the better situated people in the world to understand all factors in operation? Because his public comment tends to undermine the country’s position. If he has advice, he ought to give it to the President privately. As to Carter being well-situated to give advice, I disagree. He has no more access to confidential intelligence reports than you or I. He’s been out of office for 22 years. Furthermore, Carter’s record of failures on foreign affairs doesn’t inspire confidence in his foreign policy judgment. I like him a lot better when he sticks to moral issues (although IIRC he was AWOL on the Lewinsky scandal.) > [@](#): > > And if you think the U.N. is turning a blind eye to violations of S.C. resolutions, then that’s a matter to take up with the U.N., not something to be resolved by a war (one which will create at least as many probelms as it has any chance of resolving, IMO). You have a consistent position, **Eva** , since you think war will do more harm than good. However, I think it could be a disaster for the world if Saddam got a nuclear arsenal. IMHO war is unfortunately necessary. I would prefer to go to war as a part of the UN, but IMHO the worst of all worlds is to let Saddam develop nukes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/107 "2002-12-10T17:14:48Z")
**december** , do you consider the Israel-Egypt peace treaty a failure? If not, why do refuse to give Carter any credit for it? Take those foolish-looking blinkers off. You’re being laughed at again. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/108 "2002-12-10T17:32:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **december** , do you consider the Israel-Egypt peace treaty a failure? If not, why do refuse to give Carter any credit for it? Yes, I do consider it a success, and I give Carter credit for facilitating it. Note that this treaty did a lot more good for Israel and for Egypt than for us. The US is bearing an ongoing cost of billions of dollars a year in aid to these two countries. In effect, we more-or-less bribed them to make peace. However, peace at the cost of bribery is better than war, so I count this as a Carter success. However, this one success doesn’t outweigh a string of foreign affairs failure IMHO. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/109 "2002-12-10T17:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Make a list for me of the specific things that Jimmy Carter did or said since January 1981 that you would consider “not going home”. > [@](#): > > An entire list? I’ll start with one. I wanted to hear your entire beef with Jimmy. But if you aren’t exercised enough by the subject to be able to snap off a list of his outrages when someone asks, then you must not really care that much, and the OP becomes even lamer in retrospect. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/110 "2002-12-10T17:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > What do the Trojans have to do with this topic? Well, their proper employment by certain people several decades ago might have forestalled this exchange! 🙂 > [@](#): > > You may have heard the slogan, “All politics ends at the water’s edge.” Yes, and I agree with it. However, there is a very clear distinction between the right and duty of every American citizen, including in particular ex-Presidents who must be presumed to be aware of the problems and concerns confronting the incumbent, to speak out on issues affecting the national security and the national interest – and in particular the complexus of ideas that goes to make up the concept “America” to which one’s patriotism is directed, on the one hand, and petty partisan sniping on the other. And if, as **Ender** points out, the ex-President in question is working for international peace as a volunteer, it becomes an important part of what he does to speak out on subjects directly affecting the above. As for respect for the office, **Miller** makes an excellent point – what LBJ and Nixon did made the traditional respect for the office of the Presidency tawdry in the eyes of most people thereafter – and the blatant partisan actions of the Congressional leaders against the Presidency (because they disliked the incumbent and his policies) in the later Nineties served to further erode away any respect still accruing. In short, Republicans who complain about disrespect for the office of the President strongly resemble the man who killed both his parents and then threw himself on the mercy of the court on the grounds that he was an orphan. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/111 "2002-12-10T17:55:10Z")
And you compound the error by once again giving someone else’s opinion instead of your own. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > In 1994, Carter was President Clinton’s representative, negotiating with North Korea, who was trying to develop nuclear arms. A recall columnist who recently opined that Carter took considerable initiative, first in pushing himself forward to “help” and later in moving the US toward the agreement that Clinton and North Korea eventually signed. > > Of course, this agreement resulted in a mad dictator acquiring nuclear weapons, a bad result for not only the United States and potentialy other countries as well. And you don’t remember who the columnist was, I suppose? You just absorbed his opinion as your own without really thinking about it, “Carter is a pushy interfering dumbass who is responsible for North Korea’s getting nukes…” Why do I bother? You never did give me that list of UN Palestinian resolutions, either. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/112 "2002-12-10T18:02:08Z")
Making ex-Presidential remarks about the current Administration’s foreign policy is by no means unique to Carter; in fact, the Carter comment that the OP is so annoyed about looks like a model of restraint compared to what some other ex-Presidents have said. Consider, for example, ex-President [Richard Nixon’s](http://www.themilitant.com/1999/6322/6322_21.html) criticism of Bush I’s stance on Russia: > [@](#): > > [Nixon’s 1992 Washington speech on foreign policy] came only a few days after the publicizing of a memorandum Nixon had circulated to prominent ruling-class figures, in which he called Bush administration policy toward Russia “pathetically inadequate.” ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/113 "2002-12-10T18:34:08Z")
From The New Republic : [http://www.tnr.com/express/wilentz080201.html](http://www.tnr.com/express/wilentz080201.html) > [@](#): > > Until now, no one, not even the presidents under attack, has thought these kinds of criticism improper. So why, suddenly, is there such an outcry? And why did Carter heed it? Perhaps, in the post-Clinton era, the Republicans’ transparently partisan call for “civility”–that is, not doing to them what they did to Clinton–has snookered both the press and the p.r. people at the Carter Center. But that’s all the more reason for Carter stick to his guns, and for the Washington Post and Carter’s other critics to quit fabricating phony historical customs that stifle honest political debate. In America, anyone–including former presidents–can give the incumbent president a piece of his or her mind. The article makes reference to a Washington Post piece criticizing Carter’s ‘breach of tradition’ that I was unable to locate. From Hannity & Colmes : [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,65968,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,65968,00.html) > [@](#): > > HANNITY: All right, but you point out rightly so, they gave this award to Arafat. I think that’s all we need to know. He’s a terrorist. > > But let me move beyond that. I mean, George Herbert Walker Bush had, as you know, many an occasion to criticize the antics, the shenanigans, the intern chasing, the impeachment, the lying of Bill Clinton. For the most part, he did I think, a pretty classy thing. He stayed out of it. He was quiet, he was reserved. He allowed matters to be handled by other people. We’re getting day after day it’s Carter, it’s Clinton, it’s Gore. These attacks are day by day. Is this a change in philosophy of ex-president’s and vice president’s? > > HAIG: Well, it is unusual in a historic sense. Mostly presidents don’t comment on their successors, regardless of their party. Just as secretary of states don’t nit pick their successors, regardless of party and regardless of personal disagreement. > > I think it’s an unprecedented departure from what has been a very honored tradition in our government. But those things seem to be gone in the new world order that we were praising a few years ago. From the National Jewish Democratic Council [http://www.njdc.org/readNews.php?show=153&subcat=3](http://www.njdc.org/readNews.php?show=153&subcat=3) > [@](#): > > In a break with the traditional practice of former presidents largely avoiding involvement in current US foreign policy, two former presidents have recently waded into America’s policy towards the Middle East. I also came across numerous posts by individuals making reference to the tradition. Of the above cites, the most informed (in terms of historical references) is the The New Republic piece, but I personally doubt, that given the widespread perception that there is such a tradition, that it is just a “phony custom” invented by Carter’s critics. Perhaps it was just inspired by Bush I’s obvious belief that that was the way ex-Presidents should act? ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/114 "2002-12-10T18:59:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I like him a lot better when he sticks to moral issues (although IIRC he was AWOL on the Lewinsky scandal.)** So your OP complains that Carter is not heeding the time-honored tradition of ex-presidents abstaining from criticizing sitting ones, and now you’re chiding him for not speaking out against Clinton. Brilliant as always, my good man. By the way **december** , I’m selling terrorist insurance if you’re interested. Buy now and you’ll get Frank Sinatra’s Greatest Hits and a family pack of tinfoil hats in fall fashion colors. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/115 "2002-12-10T19:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Jimmy Carter is still [giving foreign policy advice](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/09/norway.carter/) – in some cases, publicly disagreeing with the current President’s stated policy. Particularly given Mr. Carter’s disastrous foreign policy record, why can’t he just smile silently? I admire him as a human being, but I wish he’d go off and build some more houses or something. \*\* Are you John Ashecroft? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/116 "2002-12-10T19:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \*OTOH it’s Bush’s stated position that the US reserves the right to go to war with Iraq regardless of the judgment made by the UNSC. Carter said he “sees no reason for armed conflict” if Saddam is found in compliance. And that’s all he said. I’m sorry, but I cannot see any criticism, explicit or implicit, of the Bush administration’s policies there. There’s not even a disagreement. I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here, **december** , and I think you’re doing it simply because you dislike Mr. Carter. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/117 "2002-12-10T19:53:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Saddam miscalculated US action when he invaded Kuwait. Unfortunate words from a former President may encourage another miscalculation. So Carter’s words could contribute to starting a war. \*\* :rolleyes: Carter’s remarks have as much weight as the remarks given to Saddam by April Glaspie _who spoke for the President_? Please! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/118 "2002-12-10T20:12:33Z")
I’m reminded of the common refrain from the smugger conservatives that liberals’ (or Democrats’, not a synonym but they mean it as one) hearts are in the right places but they’re hopelessly impractical (a statement that rationalizes not even trying to make the world a better place). It must follow that a policy or initiative by a liberal must be a failure. Carter was a Democrat, therefore he must have failed. Isn’t that really it, **december**? Now then - you’ve admitted, under some duress and only partially but you did it, that his efforts in bringing peace and stability to part of the Middle East were, in fact, a substantial success. Now the the subject is bringing peace and stability in another part of the Middle East, aren’t Carter’s views on the subject _more_ weighty than almost anyone else’s, even your revered partisan RW commentators’? Isn’t Carter about the _last_ person in the world who ought to be asked to keep quiet about it? So “politics stops at the water’s edge”, does it? Is that what is now being said by the Republican pols and commentators who said Clinton was “wagging the dog” in Afghanistan and Sudan, or should have pulled out of Somalia? Y’all can go screw now, ya heah? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/119 "2002-12-10T22:54:16Z")
Can we all close our eyes and try to imagine this scenario: The incumbent president is pursuing a soft line of appeasement of muslim terrorists and violent arab regimes, and has pulled the aid rug from under Israel. Carter comes out and says that he thinks this is a bad idea. December starts a thread saying that it is inappropriate for ex-presidents to criticise the incumbent president’s foreign policy. Pffffff. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630/120 "2002-12-11T21:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Can we all close our eyes and try to imagine this scenario: > > The incumbent president is pursuing a soft line of appeasement of muslim terrorists and violent arab regimes, and has pulled the aid rug from under Israel. Carter comes out and says that he thinks this is a bad idea. > > December starts a thread saying that it is inappropriate for ex-presidents to criticise the incumbent president’s foreign policy. I’d like to see that thread, **Princhester** , but I’m afraid that if I tried, I’d be struck and killed on the way here by one of the tractor-trailers laden with ice skates heading down the Road Paved with Good Intentions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-love-you-you-have-your-nobel-prize-now-please-shut-up/141630.md?page=5)