# We Must Select 50 Languages That Will Survive Forever - Which Criteria Should We Use? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2023, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769 "2023-09-27T10:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/21 "2023-09-27T17:58:53Z")
Oh, that changes everything! I don’t care about the mechanism–magic DuoLingo is fine–but the consequences were what I was focusing on. With magic fluency, I’m far less concerned about consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/22 "2023-09-27T18:02:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How many people in Nepal speak one of the top 50 languages? Is it worth including one Nepali dialect or language in order to keep Nepalis alive? In this scenario most Nepali will probably pick up Hindi, which is very similar. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/23 "2023-09-27T18:09:42Z")
I think preserving the indigenous languages might prove useful in phycology and sociology someday, I would hate the thought of them just disappearing. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/24 "2023-09-27T19:01:03Z")
Ultimately, erasing language is a component of cultural genocide, and language suppression has been historically used for that purpose.\* Our hypothetical will be enormously damaging in that context, especially since the languages will be fully erased from history rather than simply no longer being spoken. \*I’m in no way ascribing those motivations to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/25 "2023-09-27T19:04:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > \*I’m in no way ascribing those motivations to the OP. It’s not Moonrise doing it, it’s those damn aliens. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/26 "2023-09-27T21:01:58Z")
So it’s really about what writing exists in those languages. Without the writings it’s a bit pointless IMO. Random alien in 100,000AD can impress his friends by speaking English, but the last scrap of English writing has long since disappeared (and of course last native English speaker long before that), who cares? I’d choose a single surviving Maya codex and enough Mayan language to read it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/27 "2023-09-27T21:24:34Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So it’s really about what writing exists in those languages. Without the writings it’s a bit pointless IMO. Random alien in 100,000AD can impress his friends by speaking English, but the last scrap of English writing has long since disappeared (and of course last native English speaker long before that), who cares? The OP specifies: > [@Moonrise](#): > > Those selected will not only be preserved, but actively used forever Admittedly, it doesn’t specify that they’ll be actively used by humans. Or even by some future species calling themselves humans, but evolved beyond easy recognition. ---
**Author:** ![Digger11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Digger11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger11)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/28 "2023-09-28T00:19:25Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Besides, some languages are important from a scientific point of view. Depending on the methodology, Malagasy, with its 25 million speakers, falls either just above or just below the 50 languages cutoff point. Should the fact that it is the [westernmost Austronesian language, with a unique Bantu substratum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_language#Classification) earn it a ticket for eternal preservation ? But then, should we consider Pirahã, a language famous for its highly unusual features, despite the fact that it is only spoken by at most 400 people ? I’d be fine with kicking out French to make room for either one of those. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/29 "2023-09-28T01:21:14Z")
What weight do we assign to each of the following: Number of speakers Ease of learning Historical significance (both written documents and oral history) Change in language over time (old/middle/modern English, high/low German, etc.) Vocabulary Language family If we go back to 1494 and the Treaty of Tordesillas we could have picked Spanish as #1 and Portuguese as #2. Go back a century or so and we’d choose French because it was “the language of diplomacy.” Certainly we’d have had no use for Hindi because India was under British rule and English would certainly drive Hindi into the ground. As for Japanese and Mandarin, maybe we would have considered them IF they’d adopt a Western written alphabet. A civilization which would no longer have access to Latin or Aramaic, or be able to decipher the Rosetta Stone, or where the people of Scotland don’t have [421 words to describe winter conditions](https://blog.pangeanic.com/inuit-words-for-snow#:~:text=In%20English%2C%20there%20are%20around,icicle%2C%20slush%2C%20and%20snowflake.) is poorer because of it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/30 "2023-09-28T02:57:55Z")
It occurs to me that if the Sentinelese suddenly found themselves speaking English or Hindi or whatever, they might run into serious problems. Would the alternative language have all the words they need for what they need to know to stay alive? I’d expect they’ve got words for the specific plants and animals they use and live with, and for the particular techniques they use to do so. If their language is to disappear leaving no trace – would knowledge essential for survival go with it? ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/31 "2023-09-28T07:54:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > > > \*I’m in no way ascribing those motivations to the OP. > > It’s not Moonrise doing it, it’s those damn aliens. Yes. I didn’t feel the need to specify this but since you mention it, I’m a linguist by training, so I’m fascinated by the diversity of the world’s languages. The more there are to study, the better. But I’m also a guy, so I like to make stupid rankings. > [@Digger11](#): > > I’d be fine with kicking out French to make room for either one of those. And the reason for that is… ? Like it or not, French is a shoo-in, not just because of the demographics, but because of its historical importance, its centuries-long literary prominence and its academic interest (it’d be a stretch to call it a Germanic-Latin creole, but not a huge one). > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > What weight do we assign to each of the following: > > Number of speakers > Ease of learning > Historical significance (both written documents and oral history) > Change in language over time (old/middle/modern English, high/low German, etc.) > Vocabulary > Language family That was the utimate goal of this thread. - **Number of speakers** is probably criteria n°1 ; - **Ease of learning** is both irrelevant in my opinion, and entirely dependent on your native language ; - **Historical significance** would be my second most important criteria IF we include scientific significance ; - **Change in language over time** would be included in the scientific significance criteria ; - **Vocabulary** is not clear to me ; - **Language family** is a very interesting criteria. Depending on how you rank them, you get different priorities. In terms of total number of speakers, the top 5 looks like this : 1. Indo-European 2. Sino-Tibetan 3. Niger-Congo 4. Afro-Asiatic 5. Austronesian But in terms of total number of distinct languages, it looks like this : 1. Niger-Congo 2. Austronesian 3. Sino-Tibetan 4. Indo-European 5. Afro-Asiatic The weighing changes depending on whether you put the emphasis on demographics or linguistic diversity. Whichever is the most important, I think it’s essential to cover as many families as possible. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/32 "2023-09-28T09:04:10Z")
So do it by rotation - let’s say by family, then by number of speakers in that family - so 1 most spoken Indo-European language 2 most spoken Sino-Tibetan 3 … Niger-Congo … 6 second most spoken Indo-European … 40 8th most spoken Austronesian and then 10 dead languages by whatever criteria make sense - number of texts/historical/religious significance/whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/33 "2023-09-28T10:44:12Z")
Nice idea, except that it’d give an exaggerated weight to the five biggest language families to the exclusion of to the dozens of others. It’d be harsh to reject Dravidian (250+ million speakers), Turkic (180 million), Japonic (130 million), and Austroasiatic (115+ million). Perhaps we could leave 10 spots for small but scientifically or historically relevant languages. Then, attribute points for the number of speakers and for the number of languages, add them up in the 9 language families mentioned above, then find a way to attribute a number of saved languages to each of the big families depending on that score to share the remaining 40 spots. 1. Niger-Congo 7 + 9 = 16 points 2. Indo-European 9 + 6 = 15 points 3. Sino-Tibetan 8 + 7 = 15 points 4. Austronesian 5 + 8 = 13 points 5. Afro-Asiatic 6 + 5 = 11 points 6. Dravidian 4 + 0 = 4 points (lots of speakers but only 84 distinct languages) 7. Turkic 3 + 0 = 3 points (lots of speakers but only 33 distinct languages) 8. Japonic 2 + 0 = 2 points (lots of speakers but only 13 distinct languages) 9. Austroasiatic 1 + 1 = 2 points (lots of speakers and 169 distinct languages) Treating the results as a percentage (rounded up for Indo-European and Sino-Tibetan), I get : **1. Niger-Congo - 8 saved languages** **1. Indo-European - 8 saved languages** **2. Sino-Tibetan - 8 saved languages** **4. Austronesian - 6 saved languages** **1. Afro-Asiatic - 5 saved languages** **6. Dravidian - 2 saved languages** **7. Turkic - 1 saved language** **8. Japonic - 1 saved language** **9. Austroasiatic - 1 saved language** I’d love to have some mathematicians weighing in on this, though. It may not be the best method. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/34 "2023-09-28T11:24:16Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > I’d love to have some mathematicians weighing in on this, though. It may not be the best method. Not a mathematician, but I think it looks like a good system. Only thing is that it does seem to completely exclude language groups from the Americas. That seems a shame. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/35 "2023-09-28T15:28:47Z")
Are we imagining that these chosen fifty will be _static_? Or will the fifty continue to evolve and adapt to future and even current needs? Borrowing from each other and coining new words and usages both of and independent of the interactions, even splintering into new dialects. Hard to imagine any alien technology or fantasy magic that prevents such. I would argue in that case that the analogy to preservation of biological diversity holds highest sway. Like the seed bank. Who knows what future needs may be? Of course cover the bulk of current speakers and currently relevant corpus with the most spoken and read three to five. Then look for extreme linguistic diversity. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/36 "2023-09-28T16:06:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Then look for extreme linguistic diversity. _ǂNūkhoegowab_ is in, then… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/37 "2023-09-28T16:07:39Z")
I’d says sounds good to me, but I don’t know how that sounds … 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/38 "2023-09-28T16:21:46Z")
Like this… > **[Learn Nama/Damara gowab also known as khoekhoegowab. 😊😊](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DATzmv3XnQg%2F)** > > Damara/Nama gowab is spoken In Namibia and it is also know as khoekhoegowab 😊I did not make this video. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/39 "2023-09-28T16:28:29Z")
So does sound good to me! But the serious question: how linguistically diverse are the different Niger-Congo (I’m guessing that is one of them) languages? From each other and from the other families of languages? I’d be more thinking that one of the click languages has to make the cut just because it is very different in structure than many of the more spoken ones. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769/40 "2023-09-28T16:54:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Niger-Congo (I’m guessing that is one of them) No. This is a Khoe language, completely unrelated group. A few Southern African Niger-Congo languages have picked up a few clicks from Khoe languages (Xhosa & Zulu, for instance) but most of them don’t have any click consonants at all. And the N-C languages vary very widely - they are, after all, spoken across most of Sub-Saharan Africa. And Africa is a _big_ place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-must-select-50-languages-that-will-survive-forever-which-criteria-should-we-use/990769.md?page=3)