# We need a male equivalent of "tomboy" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306 "2004-02-15T05:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/61 "2017-01-06T15:23:14Z")
Although ref **femmejean** ’s recent spate of postings it seems the issue is still very much alive. IMO this much quoted post from 12+ years ago pretty well nailed it. > [@Susanann](#): > > Yep, because men and women are not thought to be equal, in our society it is considered insulting to associate anything feminine with a male, yet it is not insulting to associate masculine traits to females - some people even brag about their daughters or wives excelling or participating in masculine activities. > … > You will NEVER!! be able to find a nice “term” to describe boys who want to be feminine which is not degrading, until you change society to consider men and women to be equal. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/62 "2017-01-06T20:14:56Z")
I am one of the referenced people. I used “sissy” for a long time, it was a good word, even despite the negative-connotation baggage. I don’t use it much any more because it is increasingly used in a specific narrow sense to mean males who get a sexual thrill out of being “feminized”, i.e., forced (or at least “forced” within the context of having a safe word and within the constraints of a defined “scene”) to dress in frilly underpants and dresses and skirts and high heels and stuff. It’s a humiliation-based kink. See in particular “sissy maid”. (not my kink) With the greater social awareness of transgender people these days, I just say I’m a “male girl”. It’s actually closer to how I perceived myself when I first came out. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/63 "2017-01-06T21:09:47Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > How about “dandy” or “fop”? 🙂 > > They’re both archaic enough so as to not be particularly insulting to modern men, IMHO. Given that Wikipedia considers David Bowie to have been a dandy, I’d say that fits. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/64 "2017-01-06T21:20:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If you can accept that men and women are different… Wait… what? When did this happen? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/65 "2017-01-07T03:38:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oh, sure, it’s OK for her to be able to do her own car repairs but she has to be feminine when she does it. What, you don’t have a pink toolbox full of pink tools?! (I thought that was the stupidest thing I ever saw until I saw pink guns…) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/66 "2017-01-07T14:08:52Z")
Yeah. The spouse and I were at a gun shop one time when I overheard him tell the guy behind the counter “_Don’t_ show her anything pink, it will piss her off. Black is fine. Even better if you have purple.” On the flip side, there are women who wouldn’t buy a guy unless it was pink. :rolleyes: The implication is that girls can use tools, but they have to be _those_ tools, the special girl tools, not the boys’ tools. Yes, in many cases the only difference is the color, but not in all cases. Sometimes the pink tools are the same as the men’s, but with a smaller grip, which is in fact a useful feature sometimes, but by making them pink and marketing them strictly towards women it leaves the smaller-sized men out in the cold. From what I’ve seen at work, Carhartt gets it - when they have “women’s” outdoor clothing it’s identical to what the men have, except for the size. The packaging might have some pink touches (though usually not, usually it just has “women” printed on it) but the product is the same materials as the men’s. There’s a time and place for segregating choices by gender, but “pinkwashing” just for the sake of “appealing to women” disgusts me. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/67 "2017-01-07T14:18:36Z")
We already have a word, it’s “bitch boy”. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/68 "2017-01-07T14:20:12Z")
Damn zombies. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/69 "2017-01-07T14:31:03Z")
Well, we need a opposite term. The female equivalent of “tom” in cats is “queen” (yes, [that’s true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat#Nomenclature_and_etymology)–I’d never known that either) and the opposite of boy is girl. So I guess the term would be “queengirl?” Okay, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/70 "2017-01-07T17:12:59Z")
Just “queen” works. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/71 "2017-01-07T17:36:33Z")
In Japanese, you have “Bishōnen”, which translates as “Beautiful Boy”. The easiest way to describe it would be to have the listener think of a popular boy band. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/72 "2017-01-07T17:46:03Z")
I’m baffled by how come people still make gender roles and expression essential to gender identity. There’s no need for that. Gender roles and expression are social signifiers. Gender identity means who you are to yourself (at least) and usually to the world also. We’re habituated to classifying social signifiers as gender-determined and tying them to gender identity, and this in an inequitable world where girls are routinely devalued, with the consequence that certain gender roles & expression determine a person’s worth. Just as sexual orientation varies independently from gender identity, so ought gender roles & expression be decoupled from gender identity and judgments of a persons worth. I think that’s going to be the only way to “answer” the OP question. I put “answer” in quotes because the OP asks for a verbal solution when none exists. As several above have remarked, this problem lies in social constructions that determine gender rather than in language, which is another set of signfiers. The problem and its solution lie in _what_ we’re signifying. I’m not one of the radical gender revolutionaries who argue that gender must be altogether eradicated. I don’t think that will ever happen. Gender is a human constant that will always manifest in some form or other. I think we shall have to learn how to do it without disadvantaging some while privileging others. Once society learns to treat everyone equitably, I’m confident the language will sort itself out. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/73 "2017-01-07T18:11:22Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > > [@kanicbird](#): > > > > If you can accept that men and women are different > > Wait… what? When did this happen? This is where someone exclaims “_Vive la différence!_” ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/74 "2017-01-07T18:56:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Sometimes the pink tools are the same as the men’s, but with a smaller grip, which is in fact a useful feature sometimes, but by making them pink and marketing them strictly towards women it leaves the smaller-sized men out in the cold. As a woman who is helped by tools with a smaller grip, I’m happy to report that places like Harbor Freight and Home Depot sell stubby handled tools in black and gray (and sometimes red or yellow), so those guys with a smaller grip and we women who hate pink have other options. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/75 "2017-01-07T18:58:27Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > As a woman who is helped by tools with a smaller grip, I’m happy to report that places like Harbor Freight and Home Depot sell stubby handled tools in black and gray (and sometimes red or yellow), so those guys with a smaller grip and we women who hate pink have other options. Now if only they’d offer 25 pound sledgehammers in pink for the big men who just really like pink things. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/76 "2017-01-07T21:40:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > there are women who wouldn’t buy a guy unless it was pink. Given that that’s the natural coloration of most of us Caucasian guys, that doesn’t reduce their selection drastically. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/77 "2017-01-07T23:23:33Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Pick one (most seem negative to me) I can live with ‘fop’ or ‘overnice.’ ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/78 "2017-01-07T23:26:17Z")
> [@Kallessa](#): > > If tom + boy = girl who likes to do boy things, then _{short girl’s name}_ + girl = a boy who dislikes traditional boy things (more or less). So what we need is a short, relatively popular girl’s name to create this badly needed descriptive term. From my admittedly old list of Common English Given Names (circa 1963): > > Amy (too like Nancy) > Ann ( “Oh, he’s such an anngirl”, no, it lacks something) > Beth (only if blonde) > Cathy (too long) > Gay (too obvious) > Heidi (only if he like lederhosen) > Jo and Joan have potential > Rose (too old fashion) > Zelda (okay, hardly common or relatively popular, but a cool name) > > So it looks like my best effort is “jogirl”. Of course, traditionally, girls with the nickname “Jo” have been tomboys, so this could lead to some confusion. > > Let’s just call them little dears. “Oh, he’s such a little dear.” > Works for me. You blew right past “zeldagirl” which sounds\* awesome.\* Dang, I need some feminine purſuits so I can be a zeldagirl. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/79 "2017-01-08T00:26:15Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Damn zombies. Tombies ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-male-equivalent-of-tomboy/229306/80 "2017-01-08T03:02:11Z")
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